Getting more LEO's to come shoot?

[Ron Ankeny]

The most represented occupation at our club is law enforcement. I think it's because they are "shooters" first and their job has nothing to do with their hobby. LEOs who like to shoot and compete will show up if they know the opportunity exists. I suppose one could say the same thing about plumbers, teachers, carpenters, ...

[Odie]

I've managed to get two leos out to a match, one of them has come back and the other one hasn't. The one that comes back has tried to get others out, he'll have like 7 or 8 saying they're going to come, but something ALWAYS seems to come up, and they're no-shows. I just keep asking, for all the good it does. I think if I can get 1 person to come out for every 100 or 200 asked (not just leos, either) I've done some good. It DOES get frustrating though. And this is not new. I've talked to 20 year IPSC shooters about this, and it has always been this way. I've offered gear, gun, ammo, ride and match fees. Nothing really helps. Funny thing is, most of the shooters I know found their way to this sport ON THEIR OWN, by word of mouth and the WANT to find a place to compete with others. The minority seems to be the ones whose buddy drug them out to a match, at least it's that way here. And they are also the ones that don't seem to last. May be different elsewhere, but that's mostly what I've observed. As I said, I'll just keep asking. I'm hard- headed that way.

[JThompson]

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, hijacking a thread to do so is frowned upon by most of us.

[JKSNIPER]

I have been to some all LEO matchs and I've seen little or no result afterward as far as returns.

I explain that production is fairly cheep, I find a division for what they want to shoot. Nothing seems to work.

I think I'll turn my attention to the FNG's.

A new USPSA match started in my general area. The guy who runs it is a Training Coordinator for a national training company. No one has been able to get him to shoot a match yet. That is funny to me. He runs the match but won't shoot. I think that EGO is bigger than just LEO it may stretch into the private training sector also.

A rather large rifle match in Florida is L.E. only.

I won't name it because I don't want to embarass the guy but ......The guy running it?

Has never been in a competition to my knowledge.

I asked a fellow L.E. officer thats known him for many years longer than I have and he said hes NEVER seen him even just fire a rifle much less fire one in a competition.

As pointed out here earlier...most LEO's are not "gun guys".

Those that are gun guys ?

Ego is a HUGE factor in keeping them away (IMHO) .

I've done everything to get guys to come to matches other than drive them there and I offered to take them from my house if they showed up....nothing.

In my tactical team we have almost 50 guys assigned.

Out of those 50 I know 2 guys that have competed in IPSC/USPSA/IDPA matches.

I'm one and the other guy is no longer assigned here.

2 other guys have competed in sniper matches.

One of them shot one time and has since refused to go to another match.

and yes you guessed it....hes now the primary instructor.

The other guy has shot in matches...once a year at one particular match which is structured so you're not under a huge amount of pressure.

Ego is a big thing to try and overcome but guys here are right.

Keep trying (Nothing ventured...nothing gained) and focus your efforts on those that DO show up.

JK

[Flexmoney]

Off topic stuff was moved here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry827326 ...and then closed.

- Admin

[hf219]

I would think that anyone who had to carry a gun everyday for their protection would want to take advantage of every possible chance of being more proficient with it.

I agree with how you feel as Im in L/E and its frustrating to see fellow officers not take an interest in being more proficient with their weapons. Although the quote above I agree with, its similar to cars, most people have cars, how many people really know how to drive one, how many people know how to check the oil or perform basic maintenance inspections, how many people clean or wax their cars. Heres the similarity, they know how to operate it, they know eventually they will need to be maintained, they know it will be needed for work hence they must have one and thats where it ends. How many people think they may have to use a car to kill someone, well there are plenty of officers walking around in condition white thinking the same thing about their firearms. When a department loses an officer in a shooting, thats when fellow officers care to be more proactive with their proficiency, thats when departments take a more proactive interest in training their officers. Shooting at a piece of paper for 60 rounds or so for one day twice a year is not being proactive, proficient, or meeting a realistic standard. If I told you that peoples lives depended on whether or not you could juggle 3 balls and all the practice I had was for 8 hours twice a year, well, I would think you would get a better picture of what happens here. The juggling actually comes into play more than I originally thought, if you had to juggle four balls, youd be allowed to drop 1 ball and still be qualified. Im sorry, LOL, this isnt funny, the analogy is though.

[Jman]

Maybe it's just simple demographics. Similar to the percentage of gun owners devoted to competitive shooting. Really small number. LE community might be even smaller. I would imagine 97+% of LEO just as soon practice for qualifications, qualify and be done. Completely understand. Tough market.

Try having a bay open to them exclusively for informal practice and bull$#it sessions a couple weekday evenings. Work on them from there.

Jim

[JimmyZip]

One thing you could try,

Back in the day at Rainbow CA they had a shoot at the end of the year that was LEO only and you could shoot it as a non-LEO if you had placed high in the monthly matches. This match was all about LEo. All stages had you doing those things that a cop might do, cuffing a dummy with spring-loaded arms( very funny) shooting from behind the open door of a car, shotgun and rifle stages that were pretty realistic in theory.

I don't know how, but that match was always packed. The thing was that the match was a way for the departments of so many jurisdictions to compete against one another. You had Border Patrol, LAPD, San Diego PD, almost all the SoCal Sherriff Depts, ATF, Customs, MPs, Secret Service the list goes on.

So my answer is, make it a match that squares the cops against the cops. Go to their superiors and spread the news that this is cheifly a Leo match and that civvies will be invite only. Play off the inter-service rivalry and you might get yourself a match.

I remember this match as I shot well enough to enter it one year. ( I was 14 at the time) It was a hoot and the cops that shot it were much more comfortable competing against their peers than the cops that come to our local mathces only when they can come in a group and then shoot in that group only.

I wish they shot more. I think the positives go both ways. We get to see them and they us as something more than what our typical perspectives reveal.

JZ

[JKSNIPER]

Jimmyzip migh tbe onto something here.

The rivalry thing might be the way to do it.

Get the Sheriffs to challenge the PO's or vice versa.

Or bill it as an LEO Challenge match for top LEO shooter from that region.

JK

[waynewal]

Jay6

I'd send the letter.

The worst that can happen is they say no or don't show up.

Send additional copies to the heads of their SWAT/response team and if theres more than one chief there then send every chief a copy of it.

Offer to hold a "clinic" at their range to familarize them with the unique aspects of USPSA/IPSC shooting matches.

Hey nothing ventured nothing gained.

You may get only 1 or 2 guys out of the bunch but those 1 or 2 will be there from then on.

Good luck.

Please keep us updated on this and let us all know how you make out with it.

JK

Will do! And I agree, if we add even 1 new shooter I think it would be well worth the effort.

Don't want this to come out the wrong way... but what about doing a 'High LEO' ? Recognize that their use of firearms is a small part of what they do, and tell them! Maybe incorporate 'felony stop' into a stage, or 'hostage scenarios'. I realize the USPS rules may inhibit some of that, but there can be side shoots?

Some may take it as an insult, but make sure they know it is not! When i get to participate in LEO training due to my job, and do well, I make sure the officers know i spend a lot of time on the side shooting. Just like fishing, bowling, etc, when you take it on as an avocation, you get very good...

Just a thought!

Wayne

Edited September 25, 2008 by waynewal

[Big Shooter]

I am looking for ways to maybe open the door for more LEO's to come shoot at our local matches. I thought about sending a letter to local PD's inviting them to a match or possible holding one just or them in order to get them interested. Since this seems like a largely untapped group of shooters in our area I think it would be positive for everyone involved. Anyone tried anything similar or have any words of wisdom? I want to try and stay away from offering a free shoot which might upset our other attendees but I am looking for a way to "get our foot in the door" so to speak.

Jay,

I'm a Patrol Sergeant and adjunct firearms instructor for a large city, about 1,800 coppers. There are exactly two of us who shoot USPSA type stuff regularly, myself and a GM whose name you would all recognize. He is currently a full time firearms instructor. (The full time instructors do recruits and adjuncts do in-service. Man, there has been a huge improvement in the shooting and gun handling skills in the 3 or 4 years he's taken over the recruits...)

Anyways...he works on them in the academy, and usually brings a couple new shooters per year to a match. Sometimes they come back...usually they don't. I keep my eyes and ears open on the street for guys and gals that seem interested. A year or two ago I created an e-mail list that has grown to about 30-40 names city-wide that I will send out mid-week before all local matches, with all the info for dates/times/location/directions/etc.....that seems to have helped a little. But still, sometimes they come back...usually they don't. When it's my turn to do roll call on Friday or Saturday I'll make mention of Sundays match and I've even showed DVD's of local shooters before roll call.

On the surface you would think that coppers who rely on their pistols to protect themselves would be very interested in this type of stuff, but let's face it, we rely on our quick wit a lot and brainpower a lot more. But it's been metioned in this discussion, the percentage of cops who shoot regularly is probably similar the percentage of the population as a whole that shoot regularly. I've found that the TAC guys are the ones most likely to say: "Yeah, but that IPSC stuff will get you killed!!"

Don't forget that this game is expensive.

Send out the letters now...do a follow-up letter in the early spring and maybe another one in the early summer. It's true, cop egos are fragile things...gentle reminders are best. Contact USPSA HQ, they have some DVD's they'll send you free or really cheap, as well as the Front Sight Annual Edition...send those along with the letters. Rather than a "free for LE match," have a "First time shooters shoot for free match" Are you LE? If not, do you have any friends that are, and that are willing to put their name on the letter as well? That will add a little more credibility to it. If you do put on a match try to remind your regular shooters to lay off the donut jokes...at least until you get to know the guys...

Good luck and keep us posted!

[High Lord Gomer]

I've gotten several people to come to our competitions by discussing the matches with them when I've run into them at the local indoor range. When I talk to one who says they're there to get ready for their periodic qualification, they don't seem as interested. In general, the people that are at the range because they want to shoot are much more likely to get involved than those that are there because they need to be.

My sister is a cop and is a pretty good shot, but she has no interest in shooting, much less in shooting competitions.

I've also gotten a few of the guys I work with to come out to matches. The ones who thought they were going to do much better than they actually did were the least likely to come back. Maybe I should have told them to expect less.

[J-Ho]

We have free doughnuts at our club.

Seriously, I think the best way is to not care about attracting certain groups. Try to get PEOPLE to come out and shoot if they happen to be cops, great! If they happen to be nurses or garbage men, that is great too.

[dcarter]

We have free doughnuts at our club.

Seriously, I think the best way is to not care about attracting certain groups. Try to get PEOPLE to come out and shoot if they happen to be cops, great! If they happen to be nurses or garbage men, that is great too.

I agree. As you can tell, I have been with Cincinnati going on 10 yrs now. I started shooting about 2 1/2 years ago and have tried everything to get my co-workers out to shoot. I have been able to bring out a couple and it just didn't take with them. I am also in the process of trying to get a CPD shooting team started which is still in limbo. As the old saying goes "You can lead a horse to water". I can't say for sure why more LEO's don't get involved. I guess the ego thing does come into play as does fear. Most LEO's have the fighter jock mentality. They are the best no matter what happens and when they are not the other guy just got lucky. My .02, just concentrate on getting people to come out. If you have the ability to run a competition match between departments that could also work....maybe.

[Flexmoney]

Cop shoot coming up in Ohio, btw. Nelsonville (tied in with Hocking College). Get some! I think it is teams and 3-gun.

Ohio Law Enforcement Officers Competing In Law Enforcement Shootout

Info courtesy of the Shooting Wire: http://www.shootingwire.com/shooting_wire_...eleaseID=135862

[dcarter]

Cop shoot coming up in Ohio, btw. Nelsonville (tied in with Hocking College). Get some! I think it is teams and 3-gun.

Ohio Law Enforcement Officers Competing In Law Enforcement Shootout

Info courtesy of the Shooting Wire: http://www.shootingwire.com/shooting_wire_...eleaseID=135862

That would be cool but I've never shot 3 gun. Turns out I spent all my money just shooting pistol.

[pjb45]

The PPC Championships are being held in Albuquerque this week. Last Friday and Saturday was a LEO 3 Gun match. I believe there were about nine stages. There were approximately 100 LEOs shooting the match. NRA rules focus on accuracy with huge time penalities for anything less than what we would call an A. IT was interesting to hear how many LEO had not shot a shotgun or an AR in months. The enjoyed the use of shotguns and ARs but there was a real difference between those who used those tools frequently and those who did not. All those who participated were quite accurate with their pistols, most were slow by our standards. But again scoring favored accuracy over speed. BTW: I could not believe the number I saw moving with their fingers in the trigger guard.

Addtionally, I believe there was a SWAT match held at the APD range last week. There were a lot of LEO in attendence.

So LEOs do shoot. They do feel more comfortable around other LEOs. This is part of the culture. Many of the reasons cited for lack of participation here are valid. I heard many LEOs this past weekend say they do not get ammo to practice. So this does inhibit their interest in shooting if it comes out of their pocket. Most LEOs do not make all that much money to afford this hobby. Additionally, many work more than 40 hours a week. So devoting time to get better at this sport conflicts with the other aspects of their lives.

It is interesting that I had coffee with an LEO just the other day, encouraging them to come to the range. They did express concern that they would be perceived as being 'not very good.' And it is true. It takes a while to become more confident in our sport.

I would conclude that three fundamental issues reduce the number of LEOs in our sport: 1) mingling with civilians, 2) not being immediatley good, and 3) finding the time. Two out of the three can be mitigated but finding the time is a tough one.

[oldtrooper]

I have been a LEO for 44 years. Most LEO's look at their firearms in the same light as a carpenter does his hammer. It's just part of what they have to learn to manage to do the job. Most of their job does not involve firefights. I have been Chief in a small town with 35 officers for the last fourteen years. Got some of them to attend a USPSA match using duty gear, department ammo, and transportation. None have become interested.

So I just gave up. The state requires qualification twice each year. One low light and one full light. I have brought USPSA and IDPA to them. I require that each shift shoot once each month. What they shoot are USPSA and IDPA stages, the stages are different each month, they love it but still won't come to the matches.

The EGO part is a great factor. They don't want to look bad when mixing with the public so to speak and they don't like it enough to put the time and money into the game to be a competitor in the matches they have observed.

I had a young trooper before I retired from the patrol who was involved in a firefight with a felon. He stated to me "Boss he kept popping up over the top of his vehicle in the same place to shoot at me. (He was returning fire but had not connected) He said, I just got a good sight picture on the spot where his head had been appearing and when he popped up I pressed the trigger. Bingo, right between the eyes." He had never shot in a match and as far as i know still has not to this day. If that young man ever has reason to kill you, he will, and he will do it with patience, nerve, and skill. Moving and shooting the fastest is not always the best.

Old Trooper

USPSA "B" Class Limited and Limited 10

NRA Action Pistol-Distinguished in Open and Limited

PPC 1490 Shooter

IDPA Just became a member and started to try this.

ICORE Have joined and located a match 60 miles away.

Hell, if it makes a loud noise and causes dirt to fly on the berm it's gotta be fun.

[GentlemanJim]

several LEOs at out club are QUITE GOOD shooters!!!

A bad guy would be in DEEP doo doo to have an encounter with a master class LEO

One LEO at our club is about the most fun guy you could ask to know

And Lots of those folks work their butts off, and dont have too much time to play with.

Jim

[JasonK]

I heard many LEOs this past weekend say they do not get ammo to practice. So this does inhibit their interest in shooting if it comes out of their pocket. Most LEOs do not make all that much money to afford this hobby. Additionally, many work more than 40 hours a week. So devoting time to get better at this sport conflicts with the other aspects of their lives.

I have heard this explanation before and I call BS!

I don't get free ammo to practice or compete.

I don't make all that much money.

I work more than 40 hours a week

I have much more going on in my life than just shooting.

I would expect that most everyone on this forum would agree with many of the sentiments expressed above. I like all of you still find the money and time even with everything else going on in my life to shoot USPSA and IDPA both. I even dip my toe into 3-gun waters occasionally. All at my own expense and out of my valuable time. So once again I call BS!

FYI:

I did a quick search on Google and came up with this link.

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-police

The average salary for police jobs is $41,000. Average police salaries can vary greatly due to company, location, industry, experience and benefits.

This salary was calculated using the average salary for all jobs with the term "police" anywhere in the job listing.

[JKSNIPER]

I heard many LEOs this past weekend say they do not get ammo to practice. So this does inhibit their interest in shooting if it comes out of their pocket. Most LEOs do not make all that much money to afford this hobby. Additionally, many work more than 40 hours a week. So devoting time to get better at this sport conflicts with the other aspects of their lives.

I have heard this explanation before and I call BS!

I don't get free ammo to practice or compete.

I don't make all that much money.

I work more than 40 hours a week

I have much more going on in my life than just shooting.

I would expect that most everyone on this forum would agree with many of the sentiments expressed above. I like all of you still find the money and time even with everything else going on in my life to shoot USPSA and IDPA both. I even dip my toe into 3-gun waters occasionally. All at my own expense and out of my valuable time. So once again I call BS!

FYI:

I did a quick search on Google and came up with this link.

http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-police

The average salary for police jobs is $41,000. Average police salaries can vary greatly due to company, location, industry, experience and benefits.

This salary was calculated using the average salary for all jobs with the term "police" anywhere in the job listing.

Not B.S. bro.

Most guys DON'T get free ammo to practice with.

And they view it as job related stuff so in their mind they're bringing their work home with them when they do "cop stuff" on their days off.

I know that YOU don't get the free ammo either but you're not an LEO and not looking at it from their perspective.

Also the time thing is an excuse.

Its a valid excuse but still an excuse.

In other words we all seem to find the time to do the things we value most.

We here all value these matches and shooting pretty highly .

Most LEOs do not.

Also the salery thing...don't trust those links.

Most of them are total B.S.

You want to know what guys make in your area go to their dept website and find out what they're advertising their pay at to get recruits.

Years ago they (news media) had my agency as 'the highest paid" and it simply was not true.

We weren't even in the top ten and thats a fact.

JK

[JasonK]

Not B.S. bro.

Most guys DON'T get free ammo to practice with.

And they view it as job related stuff so in their mind they're bringing their work home with them when they do "cop stuff" on their days off.

I know that YOU don't get the free ammo either but you're not an LEO and not looking at it from their perspective.

Also the time thing is an excuse.

Its a valid excuse but still an excuse.

In other words we all seem to find the time to do the things we value most.

We here all value these matches and shooting pretty highly .

Most LEOs do not.

Also the salery thing...don't trust those links.

Most of them are total B.S.

You want to know what guys make in your area go to their dept website and find out what they're advertising their pay at to get recruits.

Years ago they (news media) had my agency as 'the highest paid" and it simply was not true.

We weren't even in the top ten and thats a fact.

JK

I mean the BS comment to the excuses. I agree that we ALL have demands on our time, money and attention.

I thought I made the point that just like the average LEO the average non-LEO also doesn't get free ammo, works many hours and doesn't live just for shooting. So when I read "we can't shoot because they won't give me ammo and I worked 50 hours this week plus my wife/GF is bitching about the honey-do list", I say ME TOO! That excuse implies that we would see that LEO at the range if all of those conditions were resolved. I say BS. I and all of you find some way to do what we really want to do. I agree with you fully when you wrote that "most LEOs do not value shooting highly. I think that is a shame.

I did think you had me on the LEO salary until I did just what you said and looked at my local city police recruiting website. Below is a cut and paste from that site. It reflects the national average numbers I posted before. BTW, I don't get free gas if I drive my work vehicle either.

The current starting pay for a Probationary Police Officer is $41,221.44 annually. RECRUITS ARE PAID THIS SALARY WHILE ATTENDING THE POLICE ACADEMY. Police Officers will receive a guaranteed pay raise after 12 months of service with the Department. After 18 months of service from their date of hire with the XXXX Police Department, Officers will receive an annual pay of $45,558.24. Police Officers receive automatic annual step increases each year for the next three years. Currently, the base annual salary of an officer with 4 1/2 years is $54,624.96. In addition, the department offers educational incentive pay for an associate's degree or higher and certificate pay for Intermediate, Advanced and Master's Peace Officer's Certificates.

A full package of benefits is available upon starting the police academy including medical and life insurance, retirement, sick leave, vacation, longevity pay, long term disability and participation in the fleet car program. Seven (7) percent of your salary is placed into your retirement by the City of XXXX through T.M.R.S. with a 2 to 1 match.

[davidwiz]

I've been to matches where a bunch of them shot, but then they never came back. I don't know if it was not being familiar with IPSC, the "I got beat by a 'civilian' mentality" or what.

[Charles Bond]

several LEOs at out club are QUITE GOOD shooters!!!

A bad guy would be in DEEP doo doo to have an encounter with a master class LEO

One LEO at our club is about the most fun guy you could ask to know

And Lots of those folks work their butts off, and dont have too much time to play with.

Jim

Based on my experience, what you cite above is the key whether you are talking about LEO, firemen, or all the guys at the pizza palor. If you can get one FUN shooter out of a larger group to show up and enjoy themselves, like scout ants leading the group to a food source, that shooter will return with his friends.

[Vulture]

Here in MN we have at least a squad of LE/SWAT guys that come regularly. But they are almost all from one city. I asked one of them why more from other cities didn't come out. He said that most of them said if they didn't get paid for it they weren't comming. The group that comes regularly gets issued ammo and has a certian number of matches paid for by the city for training purposes. They are all nice guys and more than a few of them are quite profiecent.