Area 7: Match DQ

[lndshrk]

I had the pleasure (really) of shooting in the Area 7 Championship at Harvard, MA on Saturday and incurred my first match DQ in five years. I was shooting a Glock 34 in Production and was in a free fire zone moving towards paper and steel targets. I was told to stop after my reload and taking a couple of steps. When I questioned why I was stopped, unloaded and cleared my gun, I was told I was being DQ'd for having my finger in the triggerguard. I asked if I had it in during the reload, was told "no", but I had taken a couple of steps with my finger in the triggerguard. I disagreed that my finger was actually within the triggerguard (small hands and short fingers). I discussed the DQ with the Match Director and was told that he probably would not have called it as such, but must take the word of the RO over the shooter, as a RO myself in both USPSA and IDPA I fully understand this.

When I reviewed the rule, I realized that I have never heard it called on any competitor in a free fire zone as targets abound, and have certainly not ever heard of anyone being DQ's for failing to re-engage a safety while moving (not an issue in this case). Movement is defined in the rules as taking one step in any direction.

Movement

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets,

all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers

visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.

The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction.

I genuinely accepted the DQ without much drama, but I am now questioning whether it really was a good call or not. In any event I will take the DQ as instruction that I should be more careful in the future.

Any thoughts?

Edited June 8, 2008 by lndshrk

[shred]

The safety is a 'should', so therefor you can't be DQ-ed for not having it on.

The fingers visibly outside the triggerguard is a 'must'. Some places tend to call this much more strictly than others. A number of shooters at the last World Shoot were sent home for finger-in-the-triggerguard-while moving that wouldn't have got them even a warning at home.

FWIW, I see a lot more fingers where they aren't supposed to be in my slow-mo videos-- and the shooters always either thought the fingers were out or honestly didn't know where they were.

[Dan Hurley]

Larry is a great guy and a truly wonderful competitor. I was sincerely disheartened to see him disqualified from the match. However, to clarify, I did not state that I "probably would not have called it as such." Clearly, since I wasn't present during the run I was in no position to state what I would have done and I would never second-guess an RO. And, as both Larry and I agreed, as Range Master my viewpoint must be that if a Range Officer identifies a safety infraction, then I will accept that judgement as fact. Arbitration is the only available "next step."

[lndshrk]

If I misquoted or incorrectly paraphrased my conversation with Dan, I am very sorry.

[Supermoto]

Larry,

I didn't see the incident, so I won't comment on it, but I was one of the RO's for the next stage, I just wanted to say that you took the DQ like a gentleman and it was nice to meet you

[adweisbe]

Larry,

I didn't see the incident, so I won't comment on it, but I was one of the RO's for the next stage, I just wanted to say that you took the DQ like a gentleman and it was nice to meet you

+1

Also throughout the discussion with the RO and MD.

Edited June 9, 2008 by adweisbe

[Jim Norman]

Moving with the finger "Visibly" in the trigger guard is almost impossible to call. To catch a right-handed shooter, you'd have to be off to his left and be able to ascertain that his finger was inside the guard, not just visible through the guard. I would have no problem having a discussion with a shooter if I thought I saw his finger in. Also, if the shooter is doing a reload, it is possible at that point, depending upon position of the gun and proximity of the RO to see if a finger is in the guard.

But If my gun is UP and there are targets in front of me, am I not taking aim? How long am I allowed to prep to pull the trigger before I have to make the gun go bang?

If I am moving towards targets and will be shooting on the move, i.e. WHILE moving, then where does finger in the trigger guard while moving and not engaging targets vs. engaging targets start and stop?

I am sorry that the shooter was DQ'd for this. I am happy that he took the DQ as a gentleman, not as some do and that he did act in a manner to bring our sport into a bad light.

I do think that we need to define this much better than we do. I would almost opt for staged photos that can be flashed o screen for .2 seconds, and see home many people really see what they say they saw.

Now all this aside, there are certainly times where the finger is SO obviously THROUGH the trigger guard, I mean the shooter can darn near reach the mag release his finger is so buried, but in the normal course of events, unless you have several ROs stationed to specifically watch for and catch this, it is unlikely to be honestly caught, which is not to say that the RO in question does not believe that he saw what he says he saw, just that what he thinks he saw he did not likely see.

And this is not intended in any way to address the specifics of this instance as I was no where near the match. It is intended to address the type of call that we all are charged with making.

Jim

(editied for multiple spelling errors.)

Edited June 9, 2008 by Jim Norman

[el pres]

Well the rule states "Visibly" ??? So if the RO does not clearly see it outside the trigger gaurd

he can call it ???

I think the best example of out of the trigger guard would be KC Eusebio. Now I know why his

finger is on the ejection port, clearly no questions about it.... I wonder if he ever burns the

tip of his finger on the barrel...

[Paul Santiago]

Well the rule states "Visibly" ??? So if the RO does not clearly see it outside the trigger gaurd

he can call it ???

I would say if he does not clearly see it IN the trigger guard he should not call it. Not clearly seeing it outside the trigger guard and calling it means you assumed it was in.

just my .02..

[XRe]

There are only two perspectives that allow you to consistently and accurately call "finger in the trigger guard". Those are directly above and directly below the gun. As an RO, you don't want to be in either place. From any other angle, I can easily demonstrate to you that you cannot tell - for certain - where my finger is in relation to the trigger guard. Is it it in, or just out? You can't tell with everything standing still, how the heck can you possibly do it when I'm moving at warp speed and you're either 10+ yards away or struggling to keep up looking over my shoulder? You can't.

However - two important points result from this. Number one, as an RO, you need to be absolutely, positively, without-a-doubt-in-the-whole-wide-world-of-sports certain that you saw this before you call it. The position of the gun, shooter, and the shooter's trigger finger can easily deceive you into thinking you see something that you don't. You may think you saw it.. but did you?

Number two... as a shooter - do everything you can to disambiguate the situation. There's only two places your finger should ever be - on the trigger (when engaging targets), and plastered to the side of the frame or slide (every other time). The latter gets the trigger finger away from the trigger guard in 3 different dimensions, and makes it much easier to see that your finger in fact is not in the trigger guard...

As you move up the ranks, you pick up an additional advantage - you'll be engaging targets on the move more frequently, and moving fast enough when you're not that all the RO is typically seeing is your back. So, that's not to say that you should just be faster and you can run around being unsafe - just that you're not as likely to be called on this sort of thing by accident (and if you are called on it, it will likely be because of an AD - when you're "at speed", you cannot afford the kind of sloppy gun handling that legitimately nets you this DQ anyhow...).

[PistolPete]

Which stage was this on? There were a lot of stages this past weekend with a lot of movement. I was working stage 1 and we spoke to a few shooters regarding safety but nothing bad at all. A couple of close calls with fingers on triggers while reloading but a quick mention to the shooter after shooting and all is good. We saw very few issues and none where the shooter should have been DQ'ed.

Pete

[Nik Habicht]

The Rules:

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with Section 8.5.

and:

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction.

and just for fun:

Movement . . . . . . . . . . . .Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

So, when running full tilt ahead, gun unmounted, weak hand pumping for all it's worth, the onus is on the shooter to have that finger visibly out of the trigger guard. If the RO perceives that the trigger finger is not visibly out of the trigger guard --- the proper command is "Stop!" What's hard about that?

Dave's right --- there are often few possible places for the RO to be in a position to see this, and the opportunities have an inverse relationship to the shooter's skill level, but beware the major match stage with dedicated, pre-positioned ROs --- those guys will have figured out the danger points, and covered them as a team.....

[Jaxshooter]

I would have to agree as a CRO what you think you see and what you actually see can vary a great deal especially the finger in the trigger guard issue. I have talked to shooters after a run and told them what it looked like to me and just advised them to pay a little more attention to make sure thier finger is not in the trigger guard. I am not absolutely sure we need that rule as it is almost impossible to see from the ROs perspective other than maybe on a standing reload. If you do have you finger in the trigger guard and screw up while moving it is an AD and you earned a DQ. The gun was pointed in a safe direction when it happened or the RO should have stopped you before then.

[9x21]

The rule dates back to days of old when we shot from box A to Box B etc..

(in the box you were engaging, outside you were "MOVING")

As matches have gone to 30-50 YARD FREE FIRE ZONES, that come to no where near "8 rounds from any one position"

rule 1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to

complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design

and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from

any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all

targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require

more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction

must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single

location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in

the course of fire from any single location or view.

It may be time to re-visit the rule,

Edited June 9, 2008 by 9x21

[9x21]

Which stage was this on? There were a lot of stages this past weekend with a lot of movement. I was working stage 1 and we spoke to a few shooters regarding safety but nothing bad at all. A couple of close calls with fingers on triggers while reloading but a quick mention to the shooter after shooting and all is good. We saw very few issues and none where the shooter should have been DQ'ed.

Pete

see stage 6

http://www.uspsa.org/results/2008/Area_7_C...ages/Stages.pdf

[Supermoto]

So, when running full tilt ahead, gun unmounted, weak hand pumping for all it's worth, the onus is on the shooter to have that finger visibly out of the trigger guard. If the RO perceives that the trigger finger is not visibly out of the trigger guard --- the proper command is "Stop!" What's hard about that?

I believe in this case, the shooter was not running full tilt and had a 2 hand grip, was the gun up in a firing position?...I don't know. The stage had a dead space where you could not engage the paper targets you were approaching, but it was in a free fire zone, if this is where the DQ happened, how soon is too soon to have the gun up and ready. Its an interesting case, how strictly do we enforce the rules? Safety rules should always be black and white, but this one shows how gray they can be

Here is a video of the stage. Yes its me shooting, yes I am that vain, but it may help people understand the stage

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DesknwoMIaY

Edited June 10, 2008 by Supermoto

[XRe]

Ok... I lied... there's a third spot you can see it, too... Lookin' straight down the pipe

So, when running full tilt ahead, gun unmounted, weak hand pumping for all it's worth, the onus is on the shooter to have that finger visibly out of the trigger guard. If the RO perceives that the trigger finger is not visibly out of the trigger guard --- the proper command is "Stop!" What's hard about that?

The problem is exactly the thing I pointed out - unless the RO is looking straight at my muzzle, or is above or below the gun, there are plenty of ways for my finger to be noticeably out of the trigger guard, but not appear to be based on the angle of view. This is easily demonstrated, in fact. Having 8.5.1 is probably a good thing - however, enforcement of it is extremely hard to do in a fashion that is consistent and fair. There are cases where an infraction will be blatant, and at those times, an RO can be dead certain - but the vast majority of cases are not that way - not without having an RO in a dangerous position...

Dave's right --- there are often few possible places for the RO to be in a position to see this, and the opportunities have an inverse relationship to the shooter's skill level, but beware the major match stage with dedicated, pre-positioned ROs --- those guys will have figured out the danger points, and covered them as a team.....

Look at the mine stage for the last World Shoot. They had guys sitting right on the 180, for God's sake. Not a duty I'd do if I were one of those ROs - they have to have a gun pointed straight at them to call the DQ... Again, though - it doesn't matter where they put an RO, there are only three spots that he can reliably and consistently call this one, and none of those three spots are safe to be in.

In the end, I just don't think this is a rule that can be enforced fairly in 99.9% of the cases - but I take steps in my technique to insure that I never have to worry about it one way or the other...

Dave

[lugnut]

I hate seeing people with the finger in the trigger guard while moving but sometimes it can be a questionable and/or difficult call (not at all saying this one was). Is there flexibility to give a first time warning (as long as muzzle is in safe direction)- second time DQ? Not so easy to track in a match like this I guess. I'm still coming up to speed on USPSA rules so it might be irrelevant. But how early is too early to prep the trigger while on the move to a target?

Edited June 10, 2008 by lugnut

[BBoyle]

This is where we have the problem at matches and always will. As Pete said, he warned a few shooters that their finger was in the trigger guard. But you have another RO that just might think someone had the finger there so they decide to call it.

If I was the shooter and I had the gun up and I was aiming I would have arbitrated it. If I knew I wasn't readily aiming and wasn't sure about it I would not have.

I know I would not have called it if the shooter was in motion in a free fire zone, I would have just let the shooter know what I thought I saw after he was finished with the stage.

[HoMiE]

When I reviewed the rule, I realized that I have never heard it called on any competitor in a free fire zone as targets abound...

Are you saying that becasue you were in a "free fire zone" your finger can be in the trigger guard? I have never heard of the shooting box or area referred to as a "free fire zone", sounds confusing, too me anyways.

[Skywalker]

Given the exeption granted by the very first sentence of 8.5.1,

Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets,

you could have only disputed the RO call (finger on trigger) if you had your gun at eye level in the general direction of the targets.

In this case you were under the provision of the exception in 8.5.1, otherwise, there's simply no way you can appeal against a safety call from an RO for not having done what the RO reported:

11.1.2 Access – Appeals may be submitted to arbitration in accordance with the following rules for any matter except where specifically denied by another rule. Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safety infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal.

[Johann the Horrible]

No RO of my acquaintance gets to the match and says to him/herself- "Let`s see how many people we can DQ today". As a RO myself I find it unpleasant, to say the least, to DQ a competitor. RO`s have a job to do - to ensure all our safety at all times.

Because I am so "shite" scared of getting DQ`ed I run with my finger pointed away from the gun. I believe the onus is on me as the competitor to have my finger visibly outside the trigger guard during movement. And yes, I am one of the "bottom feeders" in the hierarchy of IPSC but I do not think it is my finger position while moving that is keeping me back.

BTW INDSHRK it is shooters like you that makes us RO`s volunteer do our work, the competitors with the attitude and the bitching and the moaning just makes us want to stay at home. Thank you for your attitude! You qualify for the title "gentleman" as apposed to merely a man.

[Dan Sierpina]

Which stage was this on? There were a lot of stages this past weekend with a lot of movement. I was working stage 1 and we spoke to a few shooters regarding safety but nothing bad at all. A couple of close calls with fingers on triggers while reloading but a quick mention to the shooter after shooting and all is good. We saw very few issues and none where the shooter should have been DQ'ed.

Pete

Pete, If I'm not mistaken, it was Stage 6.

[Boris Zaretsky]

No RO of my acquaintance gets to the match and says to him/herself- "Let`s see how many people we can DQ today". As a RO myself I find it unpleasant, to say the least, to DQ a competitor. RO`s have a job to do - to ensure all our safety at all times.

Because I am so "shite" scared of getting DQ`ed I run with my finger pointed away from the gun. I believe the onus is on me as the competitor to have my finger visibly outside the trigger guard during movement. And yes, I am one of the "bottom feeders" in the hierarchy of IPSC but I do not think it is my finger position while moving that is keeping me back.

Totally agree with you and would like to add some. It is possible that a shooter bends his finger in a such way that it is not yet in the trigger guard, but from RO stand point it is there. Hence, if I am an RO, I have no hesitation to call it because I call what I see. It is up to shooter to make absolutely sure that finger is visibly outside the trigger guard. It would remove any ambiguity and no RO in his mind would call it for DQ.

On the other hand a shooter may very well have his finger in the trigger guard and yet argue that it only was slightly bent. Hence again, I call what I see.

BTW INDSHRK it is shooters like you that makes us RO`s volunteer do our work, the competitors with the attitude and the bitching and the moaning just makes us want to stay at home. Thank you for your attitude! You qualify for the title "gentleman" as apposed to merely a man.

Oh, man! INDSHRK, please accept my greatest respect to you as a shooter and a gentlemen. There is a saying that it takes three generations to make a gentlemen and only three minutes to become an a-hole. I know some shooters that cannot take even a warning without blaming someone else for their ill. And I really hope that we have more people like you in our sport, not the other ones.

[lndshrk]

Thank you all for your comments. It was indeed stage 6, I had just done a reload and the RO confirmed that my finger was not in the triggerguard during the reload and that he was behind me on my right when making the call, but as I moved the gun up, back into my field of vision, taking a couple of steps to engage targets to my right in the free fire zone, I was stopped. As this was a safety issue, do not believe it could be arbitrated, and frankly as an RO, I would not want an RO's called removed just because the shooter made some noise about a bad call. In hindsight, cannot imagine how any top shooter is not DQ'd while engaging target arrays while moving.