Area 7: Match DQ

[JThompson]

- if he is not sure he will normally warn you.

This is actually not an option. This was a question of major dispute in class and on my recent RO test. The only option in the rule book is a DQ.

I have seen many many times where someone was warned of trigger and thought this should be an option but that is not how it is written.

The fault is on the shooter for not making it clear and the RO must do their best to make a correct judgement call when the time arrives.

"Actually," that is wrong... you can issue a safety warning at any time during the cof per:

8.6.1

No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

I will, damn well, say finger if I'm not positive and DQ if I'm sure. If I see someone approaching the 180 I will also give a muzzle warning, providing there is time. Let's face it... in most of these cases it is a new shooter. If it's an A and up by the time you see it it has already happened and all you are left with is STOP. It's helpful to be able to say finger or muzzle when a guy is close or you "think" it's there or close. If you know you DQ, but I would rather prevent it than DQ for it. If someone is approaching the 180 I would rather have said muzzle at the 175 and prevent the break than have the break and possibly someone getting injured. I will error on safety side every time. A lot of new shooters have a want for speed, but little in the way of gun handling skills. This gives us a way to put their mind back on safety since we can't say. "Slow your ass down!" Although I have given that advice after the cof was closed.

As I stated in my May RO certification class this was a question on the final test.

I answered the following:

It is a judgment call for the RO, in most first time cases he may call out a verbal warning to the competitor, repeated violation can result in a match DQ. 8.5.1, Appendix A3 and 10.5.10

and was corrected to simply:

match DQ. 8.5.1, Appendix A3 and 10.5.10

I stated the same points as many stated here but I lost in the end. This was why I missed my 100%

Just because it's on the test doesn't mean it's the only answer.. . the new test is still under development. I'm by no means the authority, but as long as 8.6.1 remains in the book I will warn if I think something is becoming unsafe.

[JThompson]

I agree, but we have to apply some reason here. You know what they meant was that if I am in a good position to see it, I should be able to tell if it is in or out. IE straighten that damn thing out so I can tell. I see some shooters who keep the crook in their finger and then it just becomes a depth perception thing and that's where this comes in IMO I lay mine right on the frame as I think it gives better control than holding it way out.

To the topic: I think this is the toughest of all calls we can make. I'm 100% on three shooters and one of those was an AD. I have given the finger warning a few times and I was pretty sure I was right, but I will not DQ on "pretty sure." There can be a problem where an RO thinks he sees more than he can.

The problem is that some RO's apply the rules (without interpretation) and then we have situations that are difficult to handle.

We had an RO at the last Florida Open that gave out several finger warnings after the ULSC to the folks on my squad. We were mostly "M" shooters and I thought the percentage of warnings was very high. In this situation we had 2 targets that were about 45 degress apart and were partially visible from one spot. To increase the available target area, folks were taking a lateral step during the transition to expose more of the second target. The RO (and the shooter) were almost static and that gave the RO a good vantage point to observe without movement. 75% of our shooters (myself included) did not take our finger out of the guard during the transition. We were in a shooting box, with targets visible and gun mounted. I do not see how you can make a finger call if you are in a free fire zone with the gun "mounted" and targets visible. Definitely NOT a call that I would make or support.

Section A3 says, "More than one step." In this case you were mounted engaging targets and only took one step... I wouldn't have said a word during or afterward.

[maineshootah]

I have followed this closely and read every argument. My question would be what is the experience of the RO and is he truly a NROI certified RO or a shooter with a timer?

We all know help is hard to find for matches and sometimes you do not have a person with the proper experience making these calls. I would like to know the answer on this one.

I know the RO who made this call.

He is NROI certified, and takes the certification seriously. He is not on this board.

He is one of the RO's that gets all up in your business behind you so he can see what is going on with the gun during a COF. Being 6'6" also makes it a lot easier to see over shoulders during reloads, and muzzle movement.

I heard about this violation for about 4 hours after the event, it damn near ruined his evening having to make the call.

We can all agree that:

A finger on the trigger during movement when not engaging a target.. is "game over".

Some can try to cloud the issue by trying to define a "free fire zone" or what is "movement", but it all boils down to muscle control on your trigger finger.

If it isn't visible on the trigger when you are moving, you don't get dinged for it.

It is that simple.

[AZ38super]

I am not trying to argue but as I stated above.

match DQ. 8.5.1, Appendix A3 and 10.5.10 is the only answer accepted by our NROI instructor who is in authority and I would suspect it has been agreed on by all at NROI.

Giving a warning is not a listed option as I argued about as well.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I have followed this closely and read every argument. My question would be what is the experience of the RO and is he truly a NROI certified RO or a shooter with a timer?

We all know help is hard to find for matches and sometimes you do not have a person with the proper experience making these calls. I would like to know the answer on this one.

I know the RO who made this call.

He is NROI certified, and takes the certification seriously. He is not on this board.

He is one of the RO's that gets all up in your business behind you so he can see what is going on with the gun during a COF. Being 6'6" also makes it a lot easier to see over shoulders during reloads, and muzzle movement.

I heard about this violation for about 4 hours after the event, it damn near ruined his evening having to make the call.

Thanks for answering my question. It is appreciated. See you somewhere

Gary

[JThompson]

I am not trying to argue but as I stated above.

match DQ. 8.5.1, Appendix A3 and 10.5.10 is the only answer accepted by our NROI instructor who is in authority and I would suspect it has been agreed on by all at NROI.

Giving a warning is not a listed option as I argued about as well.

For trying not to argue you sure do a fine job. I think you might be confusing the question that was asked on the test to what we are talking about here. I think on the test it was something like if an RO sees a shooter with his finger on the trigger during movement he can: A) Give a warning -B-) DQ the shooter C)etc etcThe only valid and acceptable answer would be to DQ in this case. You were probaly being instructed on the proper answer given the question that was asked.

8.5.1 If I see the finger on the trigger during movement there is no warning... it must be a DQ. I think they removed the warning from it so it wasn't subjective. If it's there it's a DQ not a warning what I mean is if I "think" it's there I can issue a warning per 8.6.1, but if I KNOW it's there I must issue the DQ. I think the intent was to keep one RO from issuing a warning for a 100% finger on the trigger and another issuing warning for the same infraction. 8.5.1 does NOT preclude me from using 8.6.1 for safety sake.

I don't know how to say it any better than that... If any of the instructors or more experienced RO/CROs want to jump in I would be glad for their wisdom on this matter.

Edited June 11, 2008 by JThompson

[lndshrk]

Frankly, I never got the name of the RO that issued the DQ. He ran me while another individual "Rasta Rocket" backed him up.

My issue from the onset was the call and rule, not the RO issuing the DQ.

But, it is interesting that the Level III Match rules state:

Minimum one Certified NROI official per stage

I have no idea if this requirement was met.

Also, I decided immediately not to arbitrate, but to accept the expertise of the RO, who I assumed was NROI Certified, as I am.

[Boris Zaretsky]

- if he is not sure he will normally warn you.

This is actually not an option. This was a question of major dispute in class and on my recent RO test. The only option in the rule book is a DQ.

I have seen many many times where someone was warned of trigger and thought this should be an option but that is not how it is written.

The fault is on the shooter for not making it clear and the RO must do their best to make a correct judgement call when the time arrives.

"Actually," that is wrong... you can issue a safety warning at any time during the cof per:

8.6.1

No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

I will, damn well, say finger if I'm not positive and DQ if I'm sure. If I see someone approaching the 180 I will also give a muzzle warning, providing there is time. Let's face it... in most of these cases it is a new shooter. If it's an A and up by the time you see it it has already happened and all you are left with is STOP. It's helpful to be able to say finger or muzzle when a guy is close or you "think" it's there or close. If you know you DQ, but I would rather prevent it than DQ for it. If someone is approaching the 180 I would rather have said muzzle at the 175 and prevent the break than have the break and possibly someone getting injured. I will error on safety side every time. A lot of new shooters have a want for speed, but little in the way of gun handling skills. This gives us a way to put their mind back on safety since we can't say. "Slow your ass down!" Although I have given that advice after the cof was closed.

It is hard for me to put it any better than that. I would like to add a small point to that. If I am sure that I see from MY position the finger is in the trigger guard, I will stop the shooter. Of course there will be arguments such as "my finger was just slightly bent but not on the trigger", or, "how could you see it from where you were standing/running?" and many more.

Unfortunately it was not what I saw to make a call. Also I don't buy the argument that the shooter has to make efforts to ensure RO's vision of the trigger finger. The shooter must simply put it out and straight to remove any uncertainty. Why do we have so many arguments about it? Believe me I have very hard time to DQ a shooter and I bet there is no RO that would enjoy it. But the safety and reputation of our sport are very dear to me and here I take no chances.

[ima45dv8]

8.6.1 specifically grants me the authority to issue safety warnings to a competitor while they are making their attempt at the course of fire. It doesn't list or define what those warnings can/will be, so for now, it's left up to my judgement.

Until an official ruling is published on USPSA.org telling me I can't do that, I'll continue to do what I think is best at that particular moment.

[JThompson]

8.6.1 specifically grants me the authority to issue safety warnings to a competitor while they are making their attempt at the course of fire. It doesn't list or define what those warnings can/will be, so for now, it's left up to my judgement.

Until an official ruling is published on USPSA.org telling me I can't do that, I'll continue to do what I think is best at that particular moment.

I think we would be putting safety second if they remove or amend rule. 8.6.1 It allows the RO to intercede before something bad happens not wait until it's to late.!

Edited June 11, 2008 by JThompson

[Boris Zaretsky]

Rule means. 8.5.1 If I see the finger on the trigger during movement there is no warning... it must be a DQ. I think they removed the warning from it so it wasn't subjective. If it's there it's a DQ not a warning what I mean is if I "think" it's there I can issue a warning per 8.6.1. I think the intent was to keep one RO from issuing a warning for a 100% finger on the trigger and another issuing warning for the same infraction. 8.5.1 does NOT preclude me from using 8.6.1 for safety sake.

I don't know how to say it any better than that... If any of the instructors or more experienced RO/CROs want to jump in I would be glad for their wisdom on this matter.

All right. Here is the quote from experienced instructor:

"If you think the finger is in the trigger guard, yell FINGER! If you know the finger is in the trigger guard, yell STOP!"

John Amidon

This is from my discussions with John from years ago. The prelude for that was when RM forced me to reinstate the shooter after I DQ’ed him for finger in the trigger well observed by the other RO too. RM’s argument was that if the gun doesn’t go bang it ain’t a problem. So, I wanted to know the opinion at source.

[Boris Zaretsky]

If you know the finger is .....

The word know may cause some controversy. I know what I see. This is that simple.

I hope it helps.

[AZ38super]

I think on the test it was something like if an RO sees a shooter with his finger on the trigger during movement he can: A) Give a warning -B-) DQ the shooter C)etc etcThe only valid and acceptable answer would be to DQ in this case. You were probaly being instructed on the proper answer given the question that was asked.

This is not the question. I will post it late tonight when I get home. I was refering to our final test which states questions and we must answer and state the matching rules.

[JThompson]

I think on the test it was something like if an RO sees a shooter with his finger on the trigger during movement he can: A) Give a warning -B-) DQ the shooter C)etc etcThe only valid and acceptable answer would be to DQ in this case. You were probaly being instructed on the proper answer given the question that was asked.

This is not the question. I will post it late tonight when I get home. I was refering to our final test which states questions and we must answer and state the matching rules.

"What is the ROs call when moving through a course of fire not shooting at targets with the finger inside the trigger guard? The instructor gave you the proper information... as I said, if you know the finger is inside the trigger guard you MUST issue the DQ. If you are not 100% you may issue the, "finger" per 8.6.1. The wording of the question is key here... it clearly states the finger was inside the trigger guard.

Now if it had said, "What is the ROs call when moving through a course of fire not shooting at targets and you think, but aren't positive the finger is inside the trigger guard?" The answer would be say nothing or issue a "finger warning per 8.6.1. I hope this clears things up for you.

Edited June 12, 2008 by JThompson

[Johann the Horrible]

I agree fully with JT above. I would rather shout "FINGER" 100 times than DQ a competitor. However if I see the finger in the trigger guard during movement I have no option than to call a DQ. It is not about my feelings, it is about the rules. It does not matter who the shooters is, if I see the finger on the trigger during movement I have to call a DQ for every shooter, the same for everyone.

A while ago I heard a shooter AD but as I could not see where the bullet impacted so I did not call a DQ.(Boy, was I unpopular with the other shooters) It was totally irrelevant that all the other shooters could see that the bullet impacted in under 3 meters, I did not see it so not DQ. If I saw where it impacted and it was indeed under 3 meters the guy would have been DQ`ed.

BTW there is not benefit of the doubt - you either see it or not.

[Vlad]

We can all agree that:

A finger on the trigger during movement when not engaging a target.. is "game over".

Actually I don't. If a shooter is shooting on the move, gun up pointing at targets waiting for the sweet spot to break the shot as a target shows up between others, I don't see that as a problem. How about shooting a swinger on the move and waiting for it come into view? I guess the real problem is what constitutes engaging a target. Is twisting your body or leaning to get a better shot engaging? Is waiting for a swinger to become visible engaging? How about if you do those things on the move?

[L9X25]

We can all agree that:

A finger on the trigger during movement when not engaging a target.. is "game over".

Actually I don't. If a shooter is shooting on the move, gun up pointing at targets waiting for the sweet spot to break the shot as a target shows up between others, I don't see that as a problem. How about shooting a swinger on the move and waiting for it come into view? I guess the real problem is what constitutes engaging a target. Is twisting your body or leaning to get a better shot engaging? Is waiting for a swinger to become visible engaging? How about if you do those things on the move?

+1

With as much "shooting on the move" as we do these days, there will need to be a clarification. The rule seems to be written with the old "box to box" stages in mind.

Edited June 12, 2008 by L9X25

[Carmoney]

Speaking for myself, I don't think a USPSA range official should be yelling "finger" or "muzzle" at a competitor during the course of fire. A few ROs tend to do this quite a bit--most of them come from an IDPA officiating background (for better or for worse).

There are plenty of situations in USPSA matches where I will need to get fairly close to the 180, particularly when shooting in Revolver Division, where our stage planning and 6-shot break-down may be radically different than those shooting in other divisions, and perhaps different than the stage designer had originally anticipated. For example, in order to complete the stage without eating an extra reload, I may need to turn and engage a target from way across the bay, rather than shoot it from the sweet spot that the majority of shooters might use.

Now--I will not break the 180, but I may need to come fairly close to the 180 in order to execute my plan. When that happens, I do not want the distraction of hearing the RO yell "muzzle" in my ear. Although I have great respect for the responsibility of the RO to ensure safety for all concerned, unless I violate a rule or create some sort of hazard, I want the RO to stay quiet and out of my way.

[Flexmoney]

I called MUZZLE at a local match recently. This shooter was doing his ULASC. He was a big guy, blocked out lots of sun. I was in the normal RO position. He then turned away from me a bit to utilize a barrel that made for a handy table.

I know (as much as I can possible know) he broke the 180, but I couldn't see it for sure.

[George Jones]

I was hoping you'd chime in here.....

This thread forced me to dig through the rulebook again. Why, if you are correct, was 8.5.1 written in a manner that puts the onus on the shooter to visibly move his finger out of the trigger guard during movement? Given the wording of 8.5.1, and that 10.5.10 refers back to it, why wouldn't "not seeing the finger out" be enough? (That's assuming that the shooter has a trigger finger....) Educate me, please....

OK, I'll try....

Yes, it is the shooter's responsibility. It is the RO's responsibility to make calls he/she is certain about, especially those calls which have no residual evidence.

Rule 8.5 and subs deals with several issues of movement.

Rule 10.5.10 is the rule which requires the finger to be outside the trigger guard during movement. The reference to 8.5 (not 8.5.1) rounds out the issue of "movement" (you do not see that same reference in any of the other "finger" rules).

Now we can wordsmith this thing 'till we turn blue, but as much as the ideal is a clearly visible finger along the frame, calling a DQ because you do not see it there is (IMO) contrary to the intent and spirit of the rules. If you don't see it outside, you will probaly look harder, then make the call if necesary.

Warnings are for those cases where you are uncertain. As we discuss in the RO seminar, warnings are usually not welcome by experienced shooters and should be used with great restraint. New shooters should be briefed on warnings in advance - those are the shooters who need to hear them early and often.

Having said all of that, I happen to think that the finger DQ is not called nearly as often as it deserves to be. I think there is some reluctance (hesitation) part of ROs to call it is because it can happen so quickly (did I see what I think I saw?) and that they won't have that residual evidence to assure themselves that they made the proper call. No one wants to call a DQ unless they're sure.

[ebg3]

Wow. Im glad I read this thread. I've been active in this sport for over 12 years and I don't think I knew you couldn't move with your finger in the trigger gaurd. I do know to keep my finger off the trigger when reloading and moving so I don't have an AD. I'll be more aware of where my trigger finger is from now on. I do shoot on the move most of the time and stay ahead of the RO but I bet I've broken this rule before. As for an RO yelling "finger" at me, I wouldn't have a clue as to what they were talking about! I was at a match the other day and the RO yelled 180 at me. I was well aware of the 180 and was planning on using all but a few degrees of it, I found it distracting. I appreciate an RO's concern and that they don't want to DQ, but I think they should let the shooter do their thing and if they break a rule yell stop and DQ them. Just my $0.02.

[Flexmoney]

If I know I will be shooting near the 180, I will let the RO in on my plan before I shoot.

[9x21]

I have followed this closely and read every argument. My question would be what is the experience of the RO and is he truly a NROI certified RO or a shooter with a timer?

We all know help is hard to find for matches and sometimes you do not have a person with the proper experience making these calls. I would like to know the answer on this one.

closer look at our RO:

Joined: 11/21/06

RO Certification: Range Officer

RO Certification date: 9/10/07

Edited June 12, 2008 by 9x21

[lugnut]

Warnings are for those cases where you are uncertain. As we discuss in the RO seminar, warnings are usually not welcome by experienced shooters and should be used with great restraint. New shooters should be briefed on warnings in advance - those are the shooters who need to hear them early and often.

Excellent points. I'd just be curious as to why an experienced shooter would not welcome a warning that they are potentially dangerously close to a DQ? The warning "finger!" may cause a moment of distraction but isn't it more important to ensure safety?

[AZ38super]

Here is the question on the RO Final Exam.

During the course of fire, what is the Ro's call when he sees a competitor moving with the finger inside the trigger guard while not shooting at targets?

Sorry, got home to late last night to post this.