The Anti-competitor Mentality

[Skywalker]

I recounted this quote to a friend of mine and he said, "Actually, if you're standing on the banks of a raging river watching a little girl being swept downstream, the person who's going to stand the best chance of rescuing her is the one who's been trained to rescue little girls from raging rivers." Meaning that in a gunfight the person who stands the best chance of survival is the one who's been trained to survive a gunfight.

Duane,

tell your friend that applying this way of reasoning there would be no rescuers and rescuees, because all the rescuers would have drowned in the attempt to learn the skills necessary to rescue the girl (who might have as well been p*§§@d off by that long stream of drowning guys trying to save her...).

The key, IMO, is to learn the same (necessary) skills in a different environment, one that allows for learning, repeating, experimenting, discussing and observing, all while letting you focus primarily on what you have to learn, instead of trying to stay alive.

[JFlowers]

Folks,

Its not just the gun store, no competition shooters that bad mouth competition shooters, we do it to ourselves. IDPA bad mouths IPSC, IPSC bad mouths SASS, SASS bad mouths SASS. How can we expect the mall ninjas and tackle store tactibillies to have any respect for competitive shooters when we ourselves don't respect each other.

The local gunshop here used to be a very friendly place for competitive shooters, even though they really catered to the hunting crowd. Why? Well the manager shot SASS and most of the clerks shot SASS, IPSC, or IDPA. The store gunsmithing work went out to Tommy Abernathy who builds IPSC guns in the Carolinas. But that shop was an exception in many ways.

The sad fact is that most of the people who bad mouth competitive shooters are scared of their own guns. When I took the CCW class in North Carolina, After 8 hours of classroom work, the shooting proficency test required (and this is from memory so it might not be exact) 5 shots at 7 yards, 5 shots at 5 yards, 5 shots at 3 yards, and 5 shots from waist level one handed at 1 yard, no time limit and since what gun you used was not recorded or cared about most people used 22s. The re-shoot rate was 2-4 shooters per class! Even the D and U class shooters I know could pass this without using the sights!

When I was shooting 5-6 SASS matches a month and really pushing hard to develop that particular set of skills, someone asked on a chat board what gun would you use to defend yourself. My answer was that I carried a 3" 45LC Ruger Vaquero. It was the gun my hands and mind knew how to operate and logically the gun that I would be least likely to fumble under stress. That logical translates to whatever gun a person shoots in whatever competition, your level of familiarity and comfort with that gun is high and under stress your hands know how to handle it.

[short_round]

We have to suck it up, stand tall, and carry on... if we expect to gradually reach our goals.  And it's "tied up in" our conditioning.

... another barrier for some is the subscription to "fast food instant gratification." The belief that there is something you can watch, read, or buy that will somehow completely substitute for practice.

[dirtypool40]

ok, I know I am jumping back a bit to the discussion of what you were in one and are in the other, but...

I shot exclusively IDPA for about 18 months, it was my first venture into shooting sports. Everyone I talked to and every magazine I read derided IPSC as an armed track meet where you need a $3500 gun just to show up. Sure these were mostly pudgy gunstore commandos who just sat there stroking their Gold Plated Desert Eagle but I digress...

I shot a 135 (Marksman?) my first match. For the first six months I could only afford to shoot once a month and there was only one club match around so I was shooting a total of about 250 rounds a month.

Then I got a reloader and continued to dry fire when I could. At the six month mark I shot a 102 (Solid Expert, I think) and at about a year was master plus or minus a second depending on the day and gear (middle 90's). I did not "grand bag strings", I just shot it straight through.

From then on I was one of three or four locals who were supposed to win the match if we all showed up. I figure I was a pretty middle of the road IDPA master, and figured I was pretty hot stuff.

Then I had a falling out with the local tacti-cartel and moved to IPSC. My first match was a special classifier. Shooting my same gear, this is before L10, I classified at an average of 70.3%. I waded into the big deep ocean and went from master to middle "B".

I got my ass whooped for two solid years, finally EARNING my "M" card in USPSA in Spring of 2002.

Some folks don't want to know, and that's fine. Why do you think a lot of cops only come out one time to ANY match. Folks like to believe that being a big fish in their little pond is enough.

Me? I would rather see how good the best are, and then try to chase them down. I may not catch them but I learn a lot in the process.

[Patrick Sweeney]

There is a segment of the population that is scared by competition. Aided by the whole mindset of "no winners and losers" current in schools, it isn't new, just more accepted. I recall going to aerobics class, and finding a certificate some kid had left behind for a class in the gym. (The class was held in the local middle school gym in the summer.) Apparently every single kid in the class got something, and they weren't graded.

Ranking is inherent in competition. Someone wins, someone loses. The small-minded can't see that even the loser wins, if he improves in the effort.

Combine that with law enforcement training, where the mindset of winning every engagement (or you'll die, "it's a war out there") is prevalent, and the status of being a cop is a strong motivator, and you can see why they don't shoot IPSC. Who wants to be on the stand, discussing the SWAT teams performance, and risk having the other side enter their scores at the local IPSC match? "Excuse me, officer, but your SWAT team is highly trained? By the FBI, even? So why is it none of you has more than a middle B classification, and none of you have ever won the local matchs at Mud Pit Gun Club?"

No, competition is scary, and most people who get guns for defense want to be assured and soothed by their choice.

Having your performance a public event, with your score posted for all to see, is only for the strong of spirit and tough of will. Wimps need not apply.

[SRT Driver]

Maybe it is the type of shooting these people are used to. If it is not a "one hole group" it must not be good enough.

The Army practiced "bullseye" style qualification in the 40's, 50's and 60's when most of these types recieved their first exposure to shooting. Bullseye is extremely accuracy oriented where a "nice group" is the goal.

I heard the same comments when I started shooting PPC and Bullseye which are both accuracy games. "IPSC is spray and waste" etc.

Then I got bored with PPC / Bullseye and tried NRA Action then IPSC.

The level of acceptable accuracy is the difference.

[Scooter]

It's funny how this was brought up again. Over on Sniper's Paradise forum, there's 2 discussions going. Should civilians be allowed in LE/Mil competitions, answer is pretty much no. Their excuses, operation security(don't know how that applies to competition), insurance liability, and civilians have more time to train. The guys who say IPSC will get you killed popped up also. Next question/poll was can cops learn from civilian instructors with no LE/Mil experience. Results so far:

Can police learn anything from civilian firearms instructors which have never been LEO/MIL?

  Yes. Civilians often shoot better and should teach police every chance they get  43.84 % (89)

  Yes. They can teach as long as they don�t try teaching tactics  39.41 % (80)

  No. Without leo/mil experience they should not teach police how to shoot  9.85 % (20)

  No. Civilians shouldn�t shoot with cops  3.45 % (7)

  I�m not sure and want to discuss it so I can make up my mind.  3.45 % (7)

Total votes: 203

What's funny, Matt Burkett took 3rd place in 2003 at their Sniper Challenge.

[TRG65]

Mr. Sweeney and Scooter,

To add a little to your SWAT/LEO comments, here is another example.

There was recently LEO handgun competion at a range here in WV. Although, I'm not a LEO, my wife and I are SO's at an IDPA club with one of the match organizers. The match organizer got all civilian IDPA SO's to act as SO's for the competition. There were members of local SWAT/SRT teams, patrol officers and a few civilians (the SO's). My wife is a Marksman IDPA shooter, who never practices, she placed at about the 50% mark in the standings. I'm ranked a Master in IDPA, but no better than average in that class. I won the match overall, happily the second place was a local SWAT officer, but over 8 stages he was 15 seconds behind (17%). The same margin separated him from the next LEO, who if I remember correctly was from the state police.

By the same token Rob Haught kicks my *** at every match I shoot over at Ft. Harmar, many times Rod Hupp does as well. Both LEO's and both excellent shooters, but unfortunately not run of the mill.

[shred]

"Fear of looking bad"

We've all got it to one extent or another.

Why do we love to practice/show off what we're already good at?

Want to get new shooters to the match? Address that fear.

[rhino]

I always look good . . .

But ... if I were afraid of "looking bad" shooting-wise, I would have quit a long time ago. I'm not sure that's a thing that can be changed in people. Either they are comfortable being seen doing it or they are not. Some can change over time, of course, but I don't know how that change could be initiated by others.

[bgary]

Interestingly, I think that tends to be one of the "hurdles" that people have to get over before they enjoy our sport.

I hyave brought dozens of "shooting enthusiasts" out to USPSA matches. Far and away the most frequent comment I get, after they've seen a local A-class shooter run thru a stage or two, is "oh, gosh, I could never do that".

It takes a while to convince them that they don't need to "do that" their first time out ... or ever. We have a classification system that allows them to start at their own pace and recognizes their progress as their skills improve.

Bruce

PS - my wife says "I would love to shoot a match, if I could do it without people watching..."

[Rob Boudrie]

What is interesting the implication that learning how to shoot in a match means you cannot learn tactics, whereas people schooled in defensive tactics get their shooting skill through osmosis.

[rhino]

Rob! Don't confuse the issue with logic!

[Jeeper]

Where the hell did this old thread come from??? (I really need a gif that shows a dead person being resurected here.) I was looking through the dates of posts and it went from 6/2003 to 11/2004. Somebody was seraching around the archives I guess.

[raz-0]

Where the hell did this old thread come from??? (I really need a gif that shows a dead person being resurected here.) I was looking through the dates of posts and it went from 6/2003 to 11/2004. Somebody was seraching around the archives I guess.

hey,that's what comes of telling everyone to search the arcvhives first

[Jeeper]

I looked back and it seems that Rhino is the one that resurrected it. He must be bored today.

[Big Shooter]

"Do these people not realize that 99.999% of the shooting and gun manipulations they advocate as dogma was developed in practical shooting competition? Their psychological marriage to 1970s shooting techniques somehow prevents their minds from accepting that some other ways may work just as well if not better." (Haven't figured out how to put quotes in those pretty boxes!!)

I too am sick and tired of the hatred that the other shooting sports apparently have for us. I've had IDPA SO's yell at me for shooting to fast (???); and a local Hi-power guy go ballistic when he saw me drawing from the holster with a timer!!! ("Hey, you can't do that quick draw, spray and pray stuff here!!!")

I shot IPSC off and on for about ten years before I became addicted to it. Tried bullseye, IDPA and NRA hi-power in between, and I enjoyed them all, (still shoot bullseye) but IPSC is "where it's at." It seems to me that shooting IPSC will make you better at any of the other shooting sports, and as a side benefit might help to prepare one for emergencies; but I don't really get that impression from the other shooting sports. Our game is the only one that combines accuracy AND speed to such a great extent. (I know the PF is there too, but that only gets tested at big matches.) My Bullseye avg. went up about 25 points this year compared to last. Only difference between the years is a lot more IPSC shooting.

Over the years I have introduced 8, that's right 8 coppers and 3 non-coppers to IPSC, and 1 copper has stuck with it. Nobody else. He's now a M, and thank god an instructor at our range. A huge IPSC influence is present now that wasn't there before, and I think the quality of our shooting program has improved. All the coppers I've brought, especially the TAC guys were shocked (scared???) that civilians were shooting circles around them. It was a surprise to me, but coppers generally are not "gun guys," but they all think they're experts at anything and everything gun related. (You'd be surprised at how many of them want to "see the registration" for your guns. We don't have registration in WI!!!) This is not to bash on cops, I am one. Simply the truth. Many I know are trap/skeet/sporting clays, hi-power, or bullseye shooters. At least they're shooting!!

[Ron Ankeny]

News flash guys. IPSC will get you killed. And I can beat the super squad in a real gunfight behind the Mini-Mart any time because of my superior tactics and warrior attitude. You guys just don't get it do you? Oh, almost forgot, I'll be point shooting.

[Vlad]

Hey don't make fun of point shooting!

We actually have an older gentleman who shows up at our practice matches who can aim and all that, but also just point shoots at open target and gets his A's. Apparently he practices at home with his .38 and primer driven plastic bullets shooting at empty cereal boxed. And then he somehow translates that to shooting a single stack Colt. Not my way but it works for him.

Vlad

[SRT Driver]

Just more of "my sandbox is better than your sandbox." Either show up and play or pound sand.

Bullseye, Highpower, Action Pistol, PPC, IPSC, IDPA....whatever. It's all trigger time. The more the better.

I had the honor of shooting the Nationals with a husband and wife that put their IPSC skills and tactics to the ultimate test with great effect during an attempted armed robbery at their shop.

FYI.. they walked away. The shotgun flaunting robber didn't.

And the STI ran fine.

Bottom line.. hit the bad guy before he hits you.

[TRNinTX]

When I took my CCW class a few years ago we had a proficiency test the second day. 60 rounds on a FBI Q. BJ was 11 and had been shooting competitively for about 6 months and I took him along. There was an empty lane and I asked the instructor if BJ could shoot the qauls with his G34. It was somewhat embarassing to several folks. He shot 299 out of 300 and had time to reload his 10 round mags while the "armed security" guys were finishing their strings.

[chp5]

There is a segment of the population that is scared by competition.

Ranking is inherent in competition. Someone wins, someone loses. The small-minded can't see that even the loser wins, if he improves in the effort.

Having your performance a public event, with your score posted for all to see, is only for the strong of spirit and tough of will. Wimps need not apply.

Well said.

The thing about EVERY IPSC shooter is that he/she has the guts to go lay it on the line in a public forum where each person is graded by an objective standard. As a result, the shooter improves his skills and, very likely, his mental/emotional fortitude.

Many "shooters," tactical guys, and many LE (no offense to the many superb LE IPSC shooters), simply don't have the guts to get graded and get their butts kicked.

This sport is like all others: play above your head with people who are better than you and you WILL improve your skills. Everyone gets their ass kicked from time to time - the important thing is how you react to that experience.

Do you quit or stop competing after getting smashed? The IPSC shooter simply learns from the experience and moves on to improve his skills - and then comes back for more at the next match!

[Patrick Sweeney]

I just recalled that there is some talk in law enforcement circles (it comes and goes) of not scoring qualification courses, just grading them "Pass/Fail."

The line of argument (I won't dignify it with the word "reasoning") goes like this: if we call someone an "Expert" or "Master" on qualification scores, and then his or her performance isn't perfect on the street, we'll be savaged by opposing counsel when we get to court.

There is no liability protection in hiding performance. There is great liability in not seeing someone slipping in score, who then tumbles past acceptable just before their great solo on video. There is, however, great ego protection in always posting a "Pass" on the qual course.

[rhino]

Leggo my Ego!

[Ron Ankeny]

I was going to leave this alone other than my one sarcastic remark, but here goes. Like many of you, I carry a gun from time to time. I also help with some training for the county SO and for the Game and Fish. In person, I get along great with the guys and we work together.

Lately I have been more or less broadening my horizons in the areas of tactics and mindset. In so doing, I am running into a lot of guys who figure you don't know squat if you ain't shot for blood, and fellows who are convinced using any kind of visual confirmation of the relationship of the bore to the target is just nonsense (point shooters). I can discuss that stuff on the Web all day long peacefully right up until I mention I shoot IPSC and have a Master card. As soon as I try to offer an alternative such as a type 2 focus, I am an a_-hole and a gamer. The contempt they hold for IPSC shooters is beyond belief. One of the leading advocates of point shooting even posted on a widely read self defense forum that the notion of guys like Barnhart actually training spooks is IPSC urban legend.

It's bad enough these folks hold us in contempt, but good grief even when I try to learn I am "one of those". Now I know how a leper must of felt in biblical times. What would happen if I went to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch and someone saw a rule book in my range bag? I wonder if those schools are as goofy as their Internet counter parts?

My hat off to Brian Enos. The smartest thing he did was making this a competiton only forum with very limited discussion of defensive shooting. He's a smart feller that Brian.