The Anti-competitor Mentality

[Loves2Shoot]

The smartest thing he did was making this a competiton only forum with very limited discussion of defensive shooting. He's a smart feller that Brian.

RANT

Yea, 'cause their ain't no defensive shooting. Shooting is an agressive action, you can't block nothing with your shooting. It is a validation that the best defense is a good offense, 'cause their isn't such a thing of defensive shooting If you are shooting for real you'de better be able to put your bullets where you want them faster than the other guy, and if IPSC style shooting doesn't teach you that, nothing can.

Sorry Rhino, you can practice hiding and shooting, but that doesn't make it tactical or defensive just PC in my book. Shooting for real has the intent of stopping a bad dude, thus by it's nature offensive.

[SmittyFL]

That's an interesting point L2S. I never really thought of it that way, but by gosh, I now agree. There IS no such thing as defensive shooting.

[kimel]

Dammit L2S...you went and made me think! That is actually a pretty enlightened bit of writing!

Now I suppose if you were really good you could just shoot the gun/knife/club/etc. out of the bad guys hand and that "might" be defensive shooting.

[Ron Ankeny]

OK, defensive in that you are defending yourself by being more aggressive than the other guy.

I can see it now, the "Loves2Shoot school of personal aggressive shooting" followed by a 4 classifier special. Bet you would make a small fortune.

[EricW]

If Godzilla is rampaging through my fishing village, is shooting him offensive or defensive?

What about Fire Rodan?

I really need to know, as I'm putting together together my course curriculum for my new training school. I think the "When Radioactive Reptiles Attack I, II, III, and IX" courses will be well-attended.

[Skywalker]

Ron,

as usual, the only reliable answer is the field.

And since it would not be desirable to put up a real gunfight to prove they're wrong, you could simply ask to set up what they think it's a real simulation on the range, and smoke their ass...

[Flexmoney]

[Scooter]

Here's a simple challenge. Head shots at 50 yards. Most police qualifications only require hits on paper at 25 yards. Yet when stuff hits the fan, 50 yards head shots might be required. Refer to Los Angeles bank robbery, dispatch advised gunmen wearing body armor, go for head shots. Yet no one were capable of making the hits count.

[Pierruiggi]

EricW:

Maybe this will be of interest to your purpose of defending from Godzilla...

[PaulW]

I shoot both IPSC and IDPA and I also have heard all the "gun-store-commando's" talk all their B.S.

I think when the "Shit-hits-the-fan" none of us really know how we would react. Yea our testosterone wants to tell us that we would stand and fight like a man, but how do we really know? All we can really do is train to use a firearm as proficiently as we possible can and then hope we can retain a small fraction of that if we ever needed to use it.

In my early twenties I was out with some friends, there were 2 guys and 2 gals in total. We were heading back to our car as 5 punks passed us, one of which decided to grope one of the gals as we walked by. I did not see him do it but she turned around and gave this guy an earful. All 5 stopped and walked toward us. Now at the time I was heavy into martial arts (not that that means squat) but I had a pretty high sense of awareness. This was a bad situation. It was dark, there we 5 of them and 1.5 of us (LOL...my buddy was like 5'6, 130lbs). All I remember was going into complete tunnel vision. It was the strangest feelings. Blood just rushed from my head and all I saw was what was directly in front of me. So much so that I did not realize one of the jerks snuck up beside me and sucker punched me so hard I was knocked out cold. My head hit the corner of the sidewalk and my head split open. The next thing I remember is waking up to paramedics working on me. So how did I react to this threat? I didn't and that was my whole mistake. I'll never forget it either. The tunnel vision was so weird.

[DougCarden]

Let me preface this with the fact that I have been a street cop for 12 years and I am an IPSC shooter .

I started shooting Bowling pin matches, and Second Chance because of the stress that the big matches put on me. If I could shoot well with 210PF loads under stress at matches and hit little bowling pins quickly, then the 9mm Beretta would be like a .22. Wow, I was right. I got in trouble my first year at the range qualification because I soundly kicked everyone's ass, including the Chief, firing twice as fast as everyone else.

I shoot at least 2 IPSC matches a month, some Steel Challenge, and whatever I can a) afford to and get to due to my schedule. I have brought some cops with me, they like it, but would rather do other things, and there is the embarassment factor as well.

Will it get you killed? Hmmmmm the last engagement I had all I was worried about moving two steps to the left so I had a clear area behind the Felon when I dropped him, it was amazing, I dont remember drawing my gun , and then magically the front sight was on his chest, right in my eye's view. Thank you dryfire and subconcious.

I am also on the SWAT team, couple of weeks ago we had trainers from LAPD SWAT, great guys and I learned a lot. In one of our scenarios I had to slice a corner going into a hotel room. The fake Perp popped up from behind a turned over table and went BANG BANG. I took my shot as well. When I double checked my sight picture it was on his head neck area, as I held my follow through. The front sight had snapped up to my eyes again. I might have gotten shot, but he was dead as well. Yeah, IPSC will get you killed my ass....I wouldnt have the confidence that I have today to take the action to the bad guys I have if I didnt have the experience I have from years of IPSC competition. Take that Gun Store Commandos! Doug Carden

[John Dunn]

Never been to Thunder Ranch, but I have taken the Gunsite 250 class. I have nothing but good things to say about it.

It doesn't focus on competition, but all the basics are there. I was surprised that both Weaver and Iso stances were taught, and although Weaver was encouraged, it wasn't dogma. Our lead instructor (Steve Slawson) is an IPSC shooter, and was on the Gunsite IPSC team, and was excellent.

I think you will find more tactibillies at an IDPA match than at Gunsite, but the classes probably do vary from instructor to instructor.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Been to Gunsite, not to TR. The mall ninjas and tactibillies must grind their teeth at night in Prescott, knowing that their cherished dreams of tactibilli-hood affirmation are dashed when they arrive each morning.

Gunsite isn't dogmatic, and the people there have all been in the real deal. And most shoot some sort of competition. (How else do you get good enough to teach at the best place?)

I'd like to think my group had a little to do with that. We took our 250 class back in March of 1987. Morning of the first day, we were told to mark our certificate preferences, graded or ungraded. "Because there are usually one, sometimes two, Expert rating earned in a class." We looked around, wondering which of the seven people in our group, in the full class of 24, was going to get that one "E" ticket. So we kicked ass all week, and chewed our way through the Saturday shootoff to make sure we beat our buddies.

That class had seven E tickets handed out, and our group got six of them. All serious IPSC and bowling pin shooters, and not a Weaver shooter among us.

Did we catch grief for not following dogma? Not a bit, once we demonstrated we could hit what we shot at.

[Ron Ankeny]

A whole bunch of the guys I shoot with have been to Gun Site, and I have met Slawson. Steve is a good guy. I also used to shoot with another Gun Site instructor. I won't drop names but he is about the third name down on the list of instructors on their Web site. John did you know you took Avery's competition class along side a GS pistol instructor? About half of our club has been to GS and/or TR and they are good guys. Anyhow, the GS remark wasn't meant to belittle the Ducks of Death, it was an example.

You know what I think (stop rolling your eyes)? I think some guys have crammed so much tatcticallity and warriorhood into their heads they have displaced their common sense and sense of humor.

BTW, if you do a zipper drill on Godzilla with a duece and a half full of RPGs that would be a defensive shooting. Nuke his sorry butt and that would be offensive shooting.

[rhino]

I love you guys!

You hit on an ironic thing ...

The very successful schools, both financially and in terms of success of their students in "applications," are not dogmatic at all. They care about what works, and what they teach is very much like what we do. The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The problem children are those who think they have it all figured out, know it all, and dismiss anything that does not coincide with their world view. Some even claim to not be "dogmatic," yet their actions and rhetoric contradict their claims.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

[dv8]

...

Me? I would rather see how good the best are, and then try to chase them down. I may not catch them but I learn a lot in the process.

That's exactly how I feel too. I am not very much defensive shooting oriented and have no tactical training, but when I see Phil Strader taking Speed-E-Standards in 6.** seconds, something tells me that I am learning from the right people.

I'd like to add that IPSC is not only great way to improve shooting skills - there is a lot more going on there. You learn to win, you learn to loose, you learn to deal with challenges. Getting into IPSC is one of the best things that ever happend in my life.

[schmitz]

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

The only difference is the application.

I'm a top B-class IPSC-shooter over here in the Netherlands. My goal is to shoot the heck out of paper targets.

Application: paper targets, as things are changing rapidly over here after a ritual murder on a well-known film-maker: my home is MY castle.....

Pro-competition!

[MBaneACP]

Competition = Pressure

Shooting Under Pressure = Good

Interestingly enough, while out trolling for SHOOTING GALLERY shows recently, I came across a guy who had totally bought into the "competition is bad" rap. He faithfully practiced, dry-fired, trainied with his buddies, took classes and was, indeed, a fine shooter until the pressure got ramped up and his skills started showing cracks. Back when I was doing seriously stupid things like cave diving and mountaineering, we were constantly training under all sorts of artificial pressure, because when you absolutely positively had to call on your basic skills, you could be pretty sure that the situation was going to be icky in the extreme.

Incidentally, I've come to believe there's even a time and a place for point shooting, because really good people who are out on the sharp end of the stick have shown me where my own preconceptions were flawed.

Incidentally incidentally, I just got back today from Gunsite, working a bit with Giles Stock for SHOOTING GALLERY. If it hasn't regained its place as the best shooting school in the world, I'd say it's at least a toss-up. And I get out a lot. Hopefully, we're going to be formally announcing an on-going relationship between SHOOTING GALLERY and Gunsite at the SHOT Show. It'll be neat!

mb

[John Dunn]

John did you know you took Avery's competition class along side a GS pistol instructor?

Nope, I sure didn't. Of course, I've never taken Ron Avery's class so maybe that explains it!

I didn't think you were trashing Gunsite, just didn't want anyone to get the idea the place was a finishing school for mall ninjas.

I've got to know, what is a "zipper" drill?

[kurtm]

IPSC skills, nor IDPA skills, and certainly not gunstore skills, win real life encounters. Mind set, awareness, and willingness do. I know 2 GMs that don't carry, lock up thier guns at home and would NEVER think to use them along the path this thread is taking. Thats OK! The skills are certainly there but they aren't willing, nor really bothered about being "unaware". They feel they live in a safe environment. THATS OK!! I agree with MBaneACP, weapons handleing under pressure is good, and I feel it helps, but you first must be prepaired to use this skill mentally. Carring a gun doesn't neccesarily mean that you are armed.

I have found people who have made the shift twards willingness and awareness, seldom have the need to spout off about "tacticle doctrine" in the gun shop, gun show or anyothere venue. I think that should put to rest the whether you hate the anti comp crowd or not, they are just to be suffered like someone elses child.

Do I compete?? Hell yes!! it is FUN! Does it teach me bad habits?? I haven't a clue. Can I handle weapon under pressure??? I think so, BUT I can defintly say that mind set and awareness work, even if all I have is a sharp stick instead of my tricked out STI in a CR speed rig. Can you build these skills? Yep, MBaneACP listed two to start with, any life support sport will start you on the path. and remember, look behind yourself once in a while. KURTM

[Ron Ankeny]

John:

Brain fart big time. That was Sam in Avery's class, it's just so hard to tell you guys apart.

MB:

I have no quarrel with point shooters as long as they act like human beings. We all know (don't we) any decent IPSC shooter can turn their vision down and shoot from their index like a bat out of hell. Instead of bashing IPSC shooters at every turn, they need to understand they are preaching to the choir. If they would read Brian's book regarding type one focus, and maybe even read what Brian wrote about TGO's revelation to the shooting world that he (TGO) didn't necessarily use his sights, then the PSers might realize it's not what they say that can be so objectionable, it's the way they say it.

[SmittyFL]

Gunsite IPSC team?????

[tightloop]

Well, I haven't chimed in on this thread since page one....over a yr ago..but it has changed its slant to talking about Gun Site, and I can again add a little to the conversation..

I went to Gunsite in the Old Days when Cooper was younger and before Clint Smith was Dir of Ops and Chuck was the Man and Barry Belinski was the chief instructor...

There was a Gunsite dogma then...not openly, but it was there...you had to understand that the guys teaching at that time were IPSC shooters, some of them world class and what they did worked better than anything else..you had to really stay grounded not to just fall in line with the doctrine at that time...

It is lots better now, as are most of the top schools, as each of them just want to find out what works Best and teach that without the dogma.....this sport is in constant flux, trying to find the newest and best way to get it done..that is what is great..

The mall ninjas are indeed intimidated by the ability of competition shooters, and count me among those that want an IPSC GM next to me with his open blaster and big stick mag when we see the elephant...

[Carlos]

Tightloop wrote: "It is lots better now, as are most of the top schools, as each of them just want to find out what works Best and teach that without the dogma.....this sport is in constant flux, trying to find the newest and best way to get it done..that is what is great.."

That sounds a lot like the point that our host makes several times in his book (& here) regarding keeping an open mind and constantly evaluating different techniques in search of improvement. Glad to hear it has largely replaced dogma in training.

[MBaneACP]

Ron;

I think most of what you're referring to is the crapola used to sell gun magazines. It's the old AMERICAN HANDGUNNER theory of "Everything You KNow Is Wrong--Amazingly Efficient Death Dealing Stealth Ninja Secret Shooting Techniques Now Revealed For The First Time Only Here We're Not Kidding" every issue. Most of the good instructors that I respect see point shooting as nothing but another tool to put in the box, to be used when the situation dictates. It's the same mentality that got all of us "competition shooters" whacked in the gun mags by guys who couldn't hit Pittsburg if you gave 'em three hi-caps and a fire hose.

And yeah, I probably wrote some of that crapola myself...mea culpa...

mb