The Anti-competitor Mentality

[tightloop]

Really Michael...you wrote some crappola...well, damn...Whoda Thunkit????

[rhino]

For what it's worth, the static I've been receiving has not been from the typical "gun store commando"/mall ninja, but from an instructor who works for a fairly big name in the self-defense shooting circles. It's easier to understand and dismiss coming from some rube than it is from someone who should know better.

[Duane Thomas]

I think the "When Radioactive Reptiles Attack I, II, III, and IX" courses will be well-attended.

But what about IV thru VIII?

[EricW]

I think the "When Radioactive Reptiles Attack I, II, III, and IX" courses will be well-attended.

But what about IV thru VIII?

Damn you Duane! Now I'll have to change the names of the super-secret training courses just to keep the Philistines at bay.

[Duane Thomas]

And well you should.

[Ron Ankeny]

Smitty, can you keep a secret? Some of the best shooters in our local club are Gun Sight graduates. Without those guys, the club would go down the toilet. In fact, one of the GS dudes sets up courses of fire every match. Please don't tell.

Two years ago the guys had a shooting school for coppers going on when a neighboring club had a big steel shoot. Steve Slawson and another GS instructor slipped away on a weekend and attended the shoot. There were about 6 of the GS guys incognito shooting the match. Alas, a couple of them had the duck of death embroidered on their shirts and the gig was up.

[tightloop]

They should have proclaimed it to be a crow, instead of a raven....that would have satisfied everyone, I am sure

[Paul Sharp]

[Flexmoney]

Paul,

Well said.

[Ron Ankeny]

Paul:

I don't care you are. That there is funny.

[ima45dv8]

From what I gather from conversations with some LEOs who can and do shoot well, it seems like the vast majority of their fellow cops are not gun people. They would rather not even have that heavy thing pulling on their belt. Their agencies cannot get them to practice. I suggested practice to a couple of them who told me they would be willing to go to the range only if they got paid overtime for being there. Otherwise, no chance.

Thanks to God for guys like my friend Bruce, and Phil Strader, and Doug C., and all the other cops who make the effort to learn this life-saving skill. I pray they never need it, but if they do I hope their range experiences allow them to deliver fierce and effective retribution upon the evil-doers, and then go home alive.

A local LEO trainer sometimes asks some of his IPSC shooting buddies to assist with running his officers through their semi-annual Qual course. Talk about spooky! I left the first one feeling certain that I don’t want to be anywhere near one of these folks if they feel the need to draw down on someone. He also likes to have his friends shoot alongside some of his officers so he can stop and show them how a civilian is shooting the course better than everyone else on the line. I know he hopes it will “shame” some of them into practicing more, but I don’t think it’s working. If anything was accomplished, it’s simply that a few IPSC shooters will never get a break on a speeding ticket in that jurisdiction.

Another time, I was assisting when they had a group of civilians on the range (.40 Glocks, full auto MP5s, Sniper rifles, department ammo, etc. – lotsa fun!). During the lecture, before the shooting began, my friend points to a couple of IPSC target-shaped pieces of steel set up 95 yards away. He explains that only 3 people in his agency (out of approx. 105) can hit those at that distance. He draws, aims, and “Clang!” The whole audience does the colletive dropped-jawed “WOW!” As he reholsters, he says only one of them can do it on the first shot (more crowd noise ensues). A while later a group of them found out I wasn’t a police officer. They were asking me questions, when one of them pointed out at the steel and asked if I could hit them. I drew, aimed, and “Clang!” Same slack-jawed looks, same “WOW!” Then one of them says in complete disbelief, “Man! You shoot as good as a COP!!!” Being a guest at the police range I just said......nothing.

On the plus side, there were more than a few older women in the group. After getting all of them to take a turn with the pistols, we were letting them shoot the MP5s. One matronly Grandmother kept saying, “No, I couldn’t do that!” We finally said something to the effect of, “Just think -- tomorrow you can tell your smart-alecky grand kids that you were shooting a Full Rock-n-Roll Po-leece blaster!” A second later her eyes lit up. “Yeah! And if’n I see any of them boys who’s sellin’ dope, I’ll tell them, too!” I wanted to hug her right then and there.

So, does IPSC-type shooting have any real-world application or relevance? I think so. If I were on a Dynamic Entry team I would petition to carry a full-blown Open division comp-gun. The louder, the better. After the first two rounds were fired half of the miscreants would be totally out of the fight. Picture them rolling on the ground, screaming, hands over their ears, with blood running out between their fingers. Those not in total auditory exclusion would be so stunned they’d be sitting ducks.

[kimel]

A couple of the local LEOs I have talked to trying to get to come out to shoot with us have told me that their dept gives them 100 rounds of ammo a year. 50 for practice and 50 for qualification. They are not allowed to shoot their duty arms in practice outside of the annual qual practice so if they want to practice they have to buy a copy of their duty arm (most of the agencies here abouts carry Glock but a few allow for personal choice which almost invariably means a 1911/2011).

I even know one officer who claims to carry with only 3 rounds and no spare mags on his person because "it weighs a lot less and the average gunfight only involves 3 shots fired anyway".

We even tried to arrange a free LEO only steel shoot just to get the guys out and have some fun. No one was interested.

Last year a local sheriff deputy stopped to question a vagrant walking along the highway. Guy pulled a knife and lunged at the deputy. He emptied his mag (hi-cap) and at a distance of 3 meters and closer managed to hit the bad guy in the arm, once. I heard a rumor that he also managed to perforate his patrol vehicle numerous times but never confirmed this.

People ask me why I carry and my answer is increasingly becoming "because I can't trust that the local cop will be available, able or willing to defend me should there be a need."

Now to be fair, we recently have had a couple LEOs from around the area that come out and shoot with us. One took a class with the Burner as part of his SWAT training and got hooked on IPSC. He came in at a high "B" level and has improved dramatically. He shoots every stage tactically correct and still kicks most people's butt.

My favorite line from another officer was "geez, I sure am glad you guys are on my side and not the bad guys...y'all would kick my butt".

[EricW]

During the lecture, before the shooting began, my friend points to a couple of IPSC target-shaped pieces of steel set up 95 yards away. He explains that only 3 people in his agency (out of approx. 105) can hit those at that distance. He draws, aims, and “Clang!”

I'm not trying to discount your or his talent in the least, but does anybody with a "C" card or above even think that's remotely challenging? That's a fairly easy parlor trick from the 200 yard line.

[Vlad]

During the lecture, before the shooting began, my friend points to a couple of IPSC target-shaped pieces of steel set up 95 yards away. He explains that only 3 people in his agency (out of approx. 105) can hit those at that distance. He draws, aims, and “Clang!”

I'm not trying to discount your or his talent in the least, but does anybody with a "C" card or above even think that's remotely challenging? That's a fairly easy parlor trick from the 200 yard line.

I guess thats why people state (and some even in this thread) that the average C or B shooter is head and shoulders above average gun owner when it comes to shooting skills. The first time I shot a long range standards type of classifier I had something like 8 misses and wondered how anyone ever hits at 50 yards. Last time I was mad at myself for missing one and I knew I did it as soon as I let the shot go but Virginia told me I couldn't make it up.

Vlad

[Ron Ankeny]

An IPSC target first shot, cold at 200 yards. It's getting deep in here.

Only because I don't know the hold over, lol. Might need two shots.

[tightloop]

Ron,

Glad you said it, I thought it..

[EricW]

An IPSC target first shot, cold at 200 yards. It's getting deep in here.

Only because I don't know the hold over, lol. Might need two shots.

Ron,

I know it sounds like I'm talking out my ass, but I actually practice this stuff occasionally. Could I do 200 cold? I'd be willing to spend $20 to find out.

It's a parlor trick - especially with flat-shooting 9mm. Hold at the top with a little KY elevation and you're going to hit the target. The metric target just isn't "vertically challenged." 40 and 45 *are* considerably more difficult due to the trajectory and force you into a funky sight picture (or lack therof).

100 yards isn't even a trick. I'll bet money that you can do 200 yards cold.

What's really sad is that standards of marksmanship have sunk so low that people think hitting a barn door at 100 yards with a handgun is some type of super-human feat.

[kurtm]

Steve Slawson could do it everytime, just ask him. Anyone with a crucified crow on thier shirt, and perhaps under wear too, can probably do it weak handed in a moderate wind. ( intentional gig on Steve, not the crow ) KURTM

P.S. Befor it starts, I am a family member.

[rhino]

I'm not trying to discount your or his talent in the least, but does anybody with a "C" card or above even think that's remotely challenging? That's a fairly easy parlor trick from the 200 yard line.

I have a C card and I think it's impressive. I can't do it, at least not on the first shot every time.

I did get a couple of hits (low C, high D) on a metric target at about 150 meters today, but after those first two hits it was eight misses. And that was with my elbows resting on a bench.

[ima45dv8]

During the lecture, before the shooting began, my friend points to a couple of IPSC target-shaped pieces of steel set up 95 yards away. He explains that only 3 people in his agency (out of approx. 105) can hit those at that distance. He draws, aims, and “Clang!”

I'm not trying to discount your or his talent in the least, but does anybody with a "C" card or above even think that's remotely challenging? That's a fairly easy parlor trick from the 200 yard line.

Eric, I agree it wasn't extremely difficult, but we had practiced things like that before. That's sort of the point. To most folks not actively involved in shooting handguns, and to many who do but haven't tried it at longer distances, some do see that as a Gun God-like feat. I saw folks out there (cops and non-LEO alike) who couldn't have hit the side of a barn from the inside. Again, that's not meant as a slam against all cops, but it concerns me when I see the ones who resist the idea of learning to actually shoot.

On one other trip out there, we waited until the qualifying officers were gone and started doing longer and longer shots with one of our friends Glock 27. We were hitting them pretty well at 145 yards. OK, they were doing better than I was, but I had rarely shot Glocks and the trigger was kicking my butt.

[Paul Sharp]

Ron,

Huh? "I don't care you are" I lost my yoda translator.

btw, you can't see me

[Ron Ankeny]

Paul:

That was my imitation of Larry the Cable Guy. Unless you are a redneck comedian, it probably blew right buy. His trade mark, hen something funny happens is to say, "I don't care who you are...."

Eric:

I have messed around shooting long range steel. Where I get into trouble is the goofy sight picture where everything is covered by the gun and I am guessing at hold over. If I walk them into the plate and get a good reference point, I can hit an 18x24 plate pretty regularly at some gosh aweful distances.

[John Thompson]

Ok, here's a two cent opinion from me a police academy firearms instructor. Some of this has been said to death and a couple of points may burst a few bubbles;

Yes for the most part cops can't shoot. I was at a Ohio IDPA State match a couple of years ago where two Indiana cops anounced to everyone that cops don't shoot becasue they're a bunch of whiners. Kiss my ass. In every career out there employees whine and lets face it, cops have a lot to whine about. Nothing like having a life expectancy ten years less than the general public to make me cranky. Cops don't shoot because the sub-culture is against it (but dare you get in a shooting and miss and then have to live it down with your peers), the gun is a symbol of the job and when cops go off duty most of them want to forget work. There are also time, family and money constraints. A lot of cops are led to believe by crappy shooting instructors and peers that their slow fire bullseye skills makes them dead-eye dick. Can't burst that bubble.

Here's two things that are going to change some paradigns:

1. 99% of the cops out there got into the job becasue they wanted to do the work not to carry a gun. Anyone who became a cop to carry a gun is proof of the failure rate of pre-employement psych tests. Having to shoot someone on the job is very very rare.

2. I firmly beleive that in the vast majority of self defense shootings C class is all the pure shooting skills one needs to prevail. Of course being better than that increases one's chances but the law of diminishing returns rules here. Very rare is a shoot out determined by exteme shooting skill.

[BSeevers]

I really hate the anti-competitor mentality and have got into many a heated discussion. I will say though the high road is the best road. You probably won't get someone to start shooting competition by calling them or proving that they are an idiot. Course more competition shooters have an above average dose of character but thats another story.

I think inviting people to compete and remembering what it was like to shoot that first match, then, applying that information to helping them get safety through their first match is the best way.

Most people are never going to shoot competition though. They are watchers not doers. Don't worry its easy to mock from the distance. Its hard to become a world class shooter, bike rider or model airplane racer, whatever. The jackels will always be there. Most of them even kind of look like a jackel, ya know?

Now I have challenged many a tac-a-billy to a man on man, airsoft or whatever. They wouldn't have shot competition anyway.

[John Thompson]

I get looked down on for competiting and it's thought that I'm a more skilled than nessessary shooter who has too much time on his hands. Critizim from people who think the pinacle of sport is to chase a little white ball around for a few hours at time.