Holshot Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I've read many opinions and philosophies on the topic of speed vs clean shooting and I appreciate all the information that I've found on this forum. I am relatively new and would like some advice on where to go from here. I shoot a lot of alphas. On many stages, I drop no points. But I lose a lot. Example, the stage winner had a time of 17 sec, hit a lot of C's. I had all alphas, time of 32 sec - finished 14th. Do I stay where I am and let times get better or do I speed up and let the # of A's fall off? I don't mean philosphically, I mean during my training and with my mindset at matches. The goal I understand is fastest time with all A's, but how would someone with more experience recommend I get there? thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 The best resource I've come across for figuring out strategy re: score is the articles on Matt Burkett's website. I think Max Michel wrote them, and they explain the reasoning behind different strategies depending on the type of course it is. Highly recommended. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 I've read many opinions and philosophies on the topic of speed vs clean shooting and I appreciate all the information that I've found on this forum. I am relatively new and would like some advice on where to go from here. I shoot a lot of alphas. On many stages, I drop no points. But I lose a lot. Example, the stage winner had a time of 17 sec, hit a lot of C's. I had all alphas, time of 32 sec - finished 14th. Do I stay where I am and let times get better or do I speed up and let the # of A's fall off? I don't mean philosphically, I mean during my training and with my mindset at matches. The goal I understand is fastest time with all A's, but how would someone with more experience recommend I get there?thank you Saul Kirsch explains it in great detail in his book "Thinking Practical Shooting." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 That is much of balancing accuracy and speed. Looking at a very narrow aspect, say you can draw and hit an "A" in 2 seconds, giving a hit factor of 2.5. Then someone draws and fires a "C" in 1.5 seconds, giving a hit factor of 2.6. The faster time, for slightly less accuracy wins. On the other hand, if you shoot a "D" in 1 second, it only gives a hot factor of 2, so there is a point where speed is not the answer. My general rule of thumb is that if the course can be finished in ten seconds or under, time is the most crucial, but you need hits, generally C or better. For courses between 10 seconds and 20 - 25 seconds, things are more balanced, but you can't take too long or lose too many points. For courses taking longer than the 20 - 25 seconds, go for points, but not too slow. One of these days I may even remember to follow my rule of thumb. Ray Chapman has been quoted as saying shoot only so fast as you can shoot "A"'s. That's likely not the whole story anymore, but spped can be improved through practice while striving to keep the accuracy. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Find out in practice what is required to get an A. Do no more and no less. Since I'm going to start shooting more production I know I am going to need more A's, Here is my first attempt at changing to the production mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayoupirate Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 YES Grasshopper! You've asked the question that those in the IPSC/USPSA Shooting world have struggled with for ages. (Okay maybe just a few decades) DVC = speed + accuracy + power The power is a set limitation by minor or major factor of which you have very little control. Speed and accuracy or Speed Vs. Accuracy becomes the question. The best answer I can offer to your question is experiment with a faster pace. Little by little attempting to make each run a little faster than the next. working up to the point that your reached your physical limitation for moving through the COF. Then, and only after all runs, should you analyze your points. You should see you points gradually decline as time is reduced, but at some "Break Point" you'll probably find that points drop off sharply. The answer is in your head. You will perform to YOUR BEST ABILITY when you learn to shoot at a pace that retains most of your accuracy. (Most would stay 90-95% Alphas) For Me, I've had to learn to do the opposite of you. I've had to learn (still trying) to back off of the pace I want to shoot and shoot at a pace that I can score most of the points on a stage. When you reach a speed that feels rushed and herky-jerky, your scores will show that it is. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Go absolutely as fast as you can just one club match, run it as fast as you can safely, don't hold anything back. RIP!!!!!! See what it looks and feels like to go fast enough that you aren't completely in control (not unsafe out of control but out of control if you get me). You can learn a lot from it if you really pay attention to what you see and feel, also note what you don't see as one of the most important parts of this speed run. Every once in a while I think it is healthy to see just how hard you can push as long as you do it with the intent of learning from it. Just my opinion, and worth what it cost you to read it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 For a less mobile guy like me, points are my best bet, but eliminating the time spent on everything but shooting is the goal for everyone. Move as fast as possible, reload cleanly , draw smooth and fast and know where you are headed after each shooting position. Get rid of the time it takes setting up to shoot and leaving afterward. Also, don't worry about the other guy, you shoot against yourself. Video cameras can tell you alot about wasted time. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 All Wrong Don't go faster, see faster. Learn what it takes to get that sight picture into your vision. Work on doing it efficiently, everything you can do to make it easier, will make it faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 All Wrong Don't go faster, see faster. Learn what it takes to get that sight picture into your vision. Work on doing it efficiently, everything you can do to make it easier, will make it faster. All wrong, NOT, you said what I said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandman_sy Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Been a shooter of 5 months, yeah, i've been der, looking at the ranking, having all alpha, and not getin it why i rank so low. So i read a lot of threads here in the forum, and i read someone( forgot who) who said, if you get 100% of the points of the score available, you're going too slow, below 90%, too fast. That's my motto these days. seems to work for me.... and one thing too, I worked on my transition... Helped a lot and read Brian's Book, helped a lot more..... "See what you need to see, no more, no less"... best advice i got:P just my two centavos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I've debated this with Uncle Bill and Keen many a time, and have experimented going super fast and super slow. What I have learned, and what is stated in Saul and Brians books, is that speed is economy of motion. You can look fast shooting a stage, but you are really just hurried. If you look smooth, odds are that your time was excellent, as well as your hits. Smooth is fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 I will note that the only stages I've outright won at the international and national level were on points-- there were a few faster shooters, but they didn't stick the points. Buuut... none of my runs had 100% of the points either. Brian talks about an 'acceptability knob' where you decide how refined your shots need to be on every stage (and every shot). The person that had their acceptability setting right is the one that wins the stage. Work on hit-factors and figure out how much time a point down costs you in all the cases you can think of. Then calibrate your acceptability settings.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjbine Posted July 20, 2006 Share Posted July 20, 2006 Get a timer and get SA's Book of Dry Firing. This will help you progress and get faster. It has helped me a ton. Once you start dry firing, you will start see improvement in your shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary1911A1 Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 If you are shooting Production than getting more A hits may not be as much of a problem. I too tend to shoot to many As', so I'm shooting Single Stack too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 Something I have noticed in both shooting and racing cars, there is a speed 'acceptance' level. By this I mean, when you first start out a drill like the El Prez seems awfully fast around 8 seconds. As you build your speed, an 8 sec El Prez seems awfully slow. You need to learn what is acceptable, vision wise, but the only way to do it is to push past your limit...best to do this in practice...then shoot your natural speed at a match. As your limits get faster (think of the LOHF runs mentioned in BE's book) your natural speed will get faster too. Because you get more comfortable with the speed and what is/is not acceptable. It doesn't make sense to do it in a match, you paid good money for your entry fee, you might as well put it to good use. The Match is the test, practice is where you build skills. Think of the draw. A 1 sec draw is pretty quick at 7 yds, and shooters work along time to get there. But once you've done it it seems easy, and when you get to doing .9 sec draws the 1 sec draw seems slow. It's all perception of time. Bottom line, in a match you need to shoot points, but you can't waste time getting them. So build your speed in practice and shoot points in matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Holshot, Speed is the result of economy of motion and "economy of vision." Don't go faster, see faster. That's right on it. From reading your initial post - I'd bet you shoot the same sight picture at any target that's under about 20 yards: A stopped, sight picture. Analyze your performance on a simple drill like a Bill Drill with a good question or two. How much time am I wasting because my barrel is pointed at the A zone, but I haven't pulled the trigger? On each shot - am I seeing the front sight coming back down into the notch so that I shoot as soon as the sight alignment is close enough to get an A? Or do I wait to see the sights all lined up on the target before I shoot? I think most of us understand the word "careful" to mean overly cautious. If you do - don't shoot carefully. Instead, shoot with great care. But what should you care about? Not shooting faster or slower, or shooting better or worse points. Care about - am I seeing the sight coming down toward the notch, every time? On transitions - do I see the target first and the sights appearing on the target, or do I only remember seeing the "sights lined up on the target"? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 you ultimately need both. true speed is when you just have it and never have to CALL for it. it just happens when you always shoot agressively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Holshot, You are getting some great info here. I am going to re-read this thread again myself. I'll add this... The very nature of your post title suggests that you view speed and accuracy as being one OR the other. In my experience, at any skill level, as long as you are pitting the two against each other you won't be performing up to your maximum capacity. For me, focusing on either is a loser. Instead, I'd suggest foucing on the vision (Brain's post is great). Focus on opening up your awareness...taking in as much information about what is going on as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kline Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Brian hit the nail on the head. Ive been guilty of exactly what Brian talks about on transitions (seeing the sight lift, and then just seeing them reappear on the next target). Not seeing the sight lift and then seeing the other target and then the sights come to it. I always get on myself about this because in my opinion, that is visual laziness and the shooters own fault. Visually, work hard, dont be visually lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 speed vs alpha only arises if you think of speed vs alpha.. just execute the fundamentals.. do less to achieve more!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbritt Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I shot a state section match this past weekend (production). As a test and in an effort to finish the match without bombing because of mikes and no-shoots, I mentally conditioned myself to let only the sights tell me when to shoot. I was shooting as if the A zone was the only portion of the target available. I did fairly well at this as my worst shot out of 9 stages was one single "D". I ended up shooting 92% A's. I shot this match as fast as I could make sure the sights were in the A zone. What did I learn from this? You can shoot 56 more points than Dave Sevigny, 49 more points than Todd Jarrett, and still get your butt totally kicked by both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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