Is Singlestack A Failure?

[bagdrag]

Noob chiming in here.

I really would love for single stack to be a success. I think its a great division but I'd hate to see it just replace L-10 with SS's current rules. Selfish opinion here because the SS 1911 I have is not SS legal (FL Dust Cover, Bull Barrel, Light Attachment) but it is a SS 1911. For those who have talked about the AWB sunsetting, it hasn't for everyone and I'm shocked some of this talk comes from CA residents who are handcuffed by their own existing AWB (we're still limited to 10-rd mags). Now if there were amalgamated rules between L-10 and SS to combine them to one division I'd be all for it (i.e. Single stack pistols (to include SiG P220), 8-rd mag or flush fit limit, but allowance for Bull Barrels, FL Dust Covers, etc).

Again this is just a noob's selfish opinion so please don't hammer me too hard.

I forgot to add also that eliminating L-10 can help to streamline IPSC/USPSA rules/divisions which seems like a future ocurrence. Who knows, maybe IPSC could be open to an Int'l SS division.

[nipplehead]

I. Give the SS guys their own place, gear 25% of the stages to 17 rounds or less and you will have more shooters than you can handle..

I can go with most of the above but the low round count thing P*SSes me off. If I want <18 rounds I will go shoot IDPA. Around the Chicago land Area some clubs charge $20 dallors to shoot a match. Lowering the round count would make that entree fee seem more like a rip off.

Target arrays already are there to Accomodate SS. JUST bring more mags.

BTW in the clubs in the Chicago area SS brings in 5-6 shooters tops L-10 > 15 shooters . Limited , L10 and Production is where the number are.

Edited June 29, 2006 by nipplehead

[Chuck D]

"For those who have talked about the AWB sunsetting, it hasn't for everyone and I'm shocked some of this talk comes from CA residents who are handcuffed by their own existing AWB (we're still limited to 10-rd mags)."

"Look at any of the threads here on the subject of SS in L-10 and you will find very few (if any) actual L-10 shooters who feel threatened by downloaded Limited guns. It seems to be the folks who don't shoot L-10 who believe this is a problem."

"+1 JFD AND take a look (Listen) BOD"

support....does my heart good !

[Gary Stevens]

Lose touch with the membership and the membership will go elsewhere.

Maintaining touch with the membership brings it's own hazards also.

Gary

Edited June 29, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[tightloop]

Nipplehead

Why do you have such a blasphemous attitude toward reasonable round count? Tell me what skills you are practicing with 30 rounds you can't do with 17? BTW, what is your time on the El Prez with ANY pistol...come on now, don't be shy.....My personal best is 4.21 sec down 4... skinny gun....45 cal...

If you spend 3200 bucks on an open blaster, 230 bucks on a rig, 350 on magazines, 750 on a loader to keep it fed, you are bitching about 20 bucks...I piss off more money than that driving to play with my grandkids..

Tell me how a field course with 15 shoot targets and 12 no shoot targets accomodates a SS shooter....Open blasters and Limited shooters reload once...SS shooters reload 4 times...More mags..is that your only retort...is it going to kill you that 3 of 12 stages are zero to 1 reload and total match rounds are 130 not 160...come on now..

We are not debating that other divisions draw more shooters presently than SS, but it has only been going for like 6 months...give it some time..

BTW, what division/s do you shoot in and what is your classification in each..? Just curious...

Tloop

Edited June 29, 2006 by tightloop

[mcb]

{snip}

If the wide body guys want to only shoot 10 rounds, let them shoot production....

{snip}

Don't take the following direct at you tightloop I have seen this reason said by many other shooters but the reason still sort of burn my biscuits. I shoot an L-10 wide body gun. I like my grip mods, magazine well, extend magazine release and custom basepads all of which would have to go away if I shoot production. I also like to reload; using four maybe even five magazines (if it makes sense) on a 32 round stage. I like L-10, the rules fit the way I like to shoot.

JMHO

mcb

[nipplehead]

Nipplehead

BTW, what is your time on the El Prez with ANY pistol...come on now, don't be shy.....My personal best is 4.21 sec down 4... skinny gun....45 cal...

If you spend 3200 bucks on an open blaster, 230 bucks on a rig, 350 on magazines, 750 on a loader to keep it fed, you are bitching about 20 bucks...I piss off more money than that driving to play with my grandkids..

Tell me how a field course with 30 shoot targets and 12 no shoot targets accomodates a SS shooter....Open blasters and Limited shooters reload once...SS shooters reload 4 times...More mags..is that your only retort...is it going to kill you that 3 of 12 stages are zero to 1 reload and total match rounds are 130 not 160...come on now..

BTW, what division/s do you shoot in and what is your classification in each..? Just curious...

Tloop

Ok Now you are off the deep end. Sorry not everyone is in lockstep with your views. Oh as prevouisly stated I shoot a Singlestack .45 in L10 exclusively and Iam quite competive in my area. And in L10 we reload allot and I brings lots of mags I also am eager to shoot large field courses and never complain about reloading. Im sure your superior classifactions and your money make you right

Edited June 29, 2006 by nipplehead

[Merlin Orr]

Ok Now you are off the deep end. Sorry not everyone is in lockstep with your views. Oh as prevouisly stated I shoot a Singlestack .45 in L10 exclusively and Iam quite competive in my area. And in L10 we reload allot and I brings lots of mags I also am eager to shoot large field courses and never complain about reloading. Im sure your superior classifactions and your money make you right

Way out of line.....

[tightloop]

Well, I may not be rich, but I am good lookin'

Modest too...

[TxD]

...I went to 5 US Nationals and 3 World shoots with a singlestack...

Hey, TLoop.

You left out the 2 county fairs, the goat roping,

and the one legged azz kicking contest.

Just trying to lighten things up a little.

[Chuck D]

"Maintaining touch with the membership brings it's own hazards also."

oh yea...how ?

On 2nd. thought...never mind.

Items that have NOT been addressed as of yet:

1. How does the elimination of L10 pass "customer service" muster with our current membership?

2. If SS Division is seen as a crucial division, needed to draw IDPA shooters and grow sponsor activity, why wasn't it given full Divisional status from the get-go?

3. Why can we not keep both, even if we relegate L10 to category status to make room for SS Division?

I LONG for concrete answers to the above questions. If I'm forced into another Division because of the elimination of L10...there had BETTER be a good answer for it. If some one...ANYONE...can address the above three questions w/o triggering my "bull" alarm...I'd be appreciative.

[Bob Hostetter]

Without trying to start a flame war I will try to answer Chuck D's three questions, at least from my point of view.........

1) From a purely shooters point of view more divisions are probably better, however from a match organizers point of view (at least from mine) more divisions equal more cost in trophies and prizes tables. If the increase in divisions equals a decrease in money available for the prize table most people, for better or worse, see that as less customer service. In my mind the customer service issue is a wash, with less divisions making it easier to manage a match, even if it allows for less options for the individual shooter.

2) I agree with you about the silly trial period with SS. I think if the BOD wants a SS division they should have just done it. Having said that, I can also see why they didn't. The hard feelings being expressed about this issue would have been even more vocal if they had just changed L-10 to SS. I think they wanted to see the response before jumping in. I think SS is what L-10 should have been from the very beginning and the decision to make it a 10 round division was political in response to the AWB being set at 10 rounds. This then is an attempt to correct a mistake.

3)As stated in #1 above I think having them both as seperate divisions is not the way to go. I think we need one or the other. However keeping L-10 as a catagory, for SS's only might be an option.

For the past several years I have shot Limited, L-10, and now SS. If we keep L-10 I will continue to shoot it with a downloaded hi cap, and if it is replaced by SS I will continue to shoot it with a SS.

Finally in response to a poster stating we should reduce the round count to make it easier to shoot SS (or L-10), please don't, the reason I shoot those division is because I like doing all of those reloads............

[Chuck D]

Bob:

I may not agree with you but I thank you for your response.

It's a start.

Chuck

Edited June 29, 2006 by Chuck D

[tightloop]

Bob

Nice post...thanks...

1. From the very beginning, this was not supposed to be anything but a trophy sport..shooting for recognition, not prizes...I guess greed enters into it somewhere, but if wondering what you are going to gleen from the prize table is your reason for shooting where and in what division, you've got it all wrong..Prizes weren't in the picture from the start...it was bragging rights with the big cup to the natl champ...

2. I think you have it nailed...

3. Think you have #3 pegged pretty well too..I am not trying to do away with anything, just want the SS shooters to have a place of their own..let hi cap L-10 shooters shoot as a catagory of SS...but the division is skinny guns only, flush mags at 8+1..

And I think I am the guy you are talking about regarding lower round count..I am not suggesting that all stages be reduced...just a portion of them, so the SS shooters can shoot heads up with all other divisions w/o mag capacity being the issue it is now..

[Singlestack]

Please keep this civil. Think about what you are about to type.

Thanks

[LPatterson]

Round count is an important consideration for me because the closest match is 180 miles 1 way so gas alone is $60 for a $20 match so a 5 stage 80-100 round. So instead of 10 cents a round downrange it becomes a dollar. I shoot L10 with a SS because it is what I started shooting with in the Army. I shot it in Limited before there was a Limited 10 which is when I bought all the 10 round magazines trying to even times. Now that USPSA has decided to use the highest classification shot as a SS classification, I will start shooting more SS.

For those complaining about the number of mag changes with SS, how about the Revo shooter & a classifier with a 4 target array that requires 2 rounds per target then a mandatory reload & reengage with 2 rounds per target with no stacking allowed.

[Religious Shooter]

I just don't want 8 round arrays to become universal.

SS is ok with me.

But if SS results in 8 round (other than in a dedicated SS match) arrays... me no likey SS.

As far as I can see SS is on its way to becoming a success.

[MarkS_A18138]

There should be no discussion on 8 round neutral stages. That should never be talked about. I shot a big match this that was anything but SS friendly. I COULD GIVE A RATS BUTT if I stand and make a reload. WHY because EVERY other SS guy has to do the samething. PLEASE remember you are only shooting against the guys in your division. I get off to kicking ass on stages like that!!!! I hate SS friendly stages! That means there is no thinking involved! I got PISSED this past Tuesday night at our weekly match when a production guy threw a big ass fit about a stage not being 10 round friendly.

Edited June 30, 2006 by MarkS_A18138

[uscbigdawg]

Mark,

Thank you SOOOOOOOOOOOO much for finally someone stating this fact. We hear the whining from L-10 and our Production guys that, "well if I had an Open or Limited gun, I could shoot this 16 round array (because for the Open/Limited guns it's fastest that way) without a reload." I say, you're shooting L-10 and Production and it's 8-12 targets, all shot on the move, so what's the problem? And as stated by you, the last time I checked, no Production or L-10 shooter competes against an Open gun.

Now, obviously there is some logic that has to be done in stage design. The poke around a corner for a couple of quick targets should not be more than 8 rounds as there's no value or frankly fun, when you're going to a position that you won't return to or can't pick up an extra target or two with a standing reload.

Common sense stage design, rather than restrictions, is what makes some matches stand out as "better" matches than others (Area 2 at Rio and the '04 GA State are high on my list of matches I have never had more fun at).

Rich

[walangkatapat]

I see more and more talk about Single Stack but much of it is divided by geography. Some places it is getting hotter while in others it is still ho-hum I'll just stay in L-10. It is no secret that there are those in power that want L-10 to disappear. If that happens, it will be interesting to see how the landscape shapes up.

Gary

Why would "the powers" want to do away with a division that is larger that open ? It seems many people enjoy L10; at least if you go by the numbers. I thought that we would accommadate not do away with. I suppose it would force people that now compete with single stacks in L10 to either quit or go to SS.

Its a shame if USPSA would turn their back on members that spent a few hundred on 10 round mags and race holsters and belts. Of course that would make Gary "right" about his division. Too bad that would cost others that we perfectly happy where they were.

Where did the eliminate Limited 10 in favor of SS start, anyone know?

[walangkatapat]

The things that will attract folks to shoot SS are these (and I am sure to forget some):

1. Not as expensive to build your pistol.

2. No special gear needed.

3. No special magazines needed.

4. It is classic.

5. SS lovers will feel they have a place of their own w/o the wide body crowd taking over, or having to use a magazine hanging out of their pistol that looks like a shock absorber off a Peterbuilt.

It probably will never find the acceptance that Limited has, it does not have the G Whiz factor that Open guns have...but I believe that it will have a devoted following rather like the revo shooters...and yes, with the creation of SS Division, they could do away with L-10..it was the red headed step child anyway..and lets face it....not every division in USPSA other than Revolver needs to find a place for the hi cap crowd...they already have Open and Limited...the SS crowd is merely asking for one of their own. And if you took a poll, I am sure the majority of the SS shooters would tell you the look of a 10 round mag hanging from their pistol is an abomination....Inclusive with the acceptance of SS, match directors would make lots of points if they had 25% of the stages with 17 rounds or less...one reload for SS users. Ok, the Open and Limited guys will win the stage, but you will get kudos from the SS shooters who don't have to make 4 reloads to the Open shooters none like on the long field courses..

It is about offering a little something for everyone...and as the Revo shooters have been screaming for a long time...not everyone wants to shoot a pistol sporting a Big Stick mag..or one that costs 3k to build and equip..

Come on tight you're telling me there aren't shooters out there that aren't going to put down 2k for a custom built ss gun?

It's great the single stackers want their own place, but why even talk about getting rid of L10? Talk about divide and conquer

+++1.

Singlestack FREAKING STARTED IPSC....it is classic....you can' t Pray & Spray with 8 rounds

Some people wanted to shoot their singlestack, like they did in the old days when DVC really meant something.....

That's why there's IDPA.

"One of the reasons for IDPA's success is that USPSA had written off those shooters who couldn't afford a high-zoot gun. Then Production and Revolver and now Single Stack appeared, and a lot of IDPA shooters are now shooting both sports - a definite good thing all around. Eliminating SS - or L10 - would be a step backwards."

agreed....

"Some states restrict magazine capacity to 10 rounds, regardless of what you use, so the shooters who want to shoot Limited in those states can shoot L10. "

This is the element of the discussion that is constantly and consistantly LOST on some people. The AWB ban isn't fully over...some are stuck with it for a very long time. To simply state that we that have this problem can just "go back to limited" isn't true.

Members of the BOD's as well as the USPSA President come from these affected areas. Keeping an existing (and successful) 10 round Division like L10 should be a no-brainer.

My AD as well as other members of the BOD's are well aware of my position. You get concrete answers from some, vague responses from others and then there are others whom are "reluctant"to share their true intentions or beliefs.

At any given time, USPSA could end this debate by either regulating SS to Divisional status or restructuring SS and L10 so they are competition categories under the Limited Division banner and EVERYONE would be happy.

Agendas have blocked these proposals...thus far.

Dittos.

[Carmoney]

There should be no discussion on 8 round neutral stages. That should never be talked about. I shot a big match this that was anything but SS friendly. I COULD GIVE A RATS BUTT if I stand and make a reload. WHY because EVERY other SS guy has to do the samething. PLEASE remember you are only shooting against the guys in your division. I get off to kicking ass on stages like that!!!! I hate SS friendly stages! That means there is no thinking involved! I got PISSED this past Tuesday night at our weekly match when a production guy threw a big ass fit about a stage not being 10 round friendly.

I agree with Mark wholeheartedly. I primarily shoot Revolver in USPSA (although I love shooting Single-Stack also!) specifically because it is the greatest challenge I have managed to find in nearly 20 years of handgun competition. The last thing I want is to shoot stages that are revolver-neutral (except classifiers, that's a little different story...) And I know most of my wheelgun compadres feel exactly the same way. If I wanted to make it easy on myself, there are other games I could play and other organizations out there I could join. True-hearted Revo and SS IPSC/USPSA shooters want the same thing the hi-cap shooters want, a varied mixture of nice big fun stages and plenty of bang for the buck!!

Edited June 30, 2006 by Carmoney

[Matt Griffin]

Here's my take: SS is fine, although too many divisions will water down the sport, so be careful what you add. However, we need L10 as it's own class, either that or open up Production to Major/Minor scoring. There are, believe it or not, people who don't care for 1911-style guns, and still don't want to have to use 9mm. Horror of horrors, some people even use that other hand over on the left side of the body, which 1911s suck for. Ergo, I shot a .40 Beretta for a few years, and went in L10 so I could at least get the benefit of major scoring.

Reloads are a vital and interesting part of the game. Not everyone wants to have a hand-sized submachine gun with 30 rounds of .38 super, I like having to dope out the stages and plan reloads. If you don't, that's all good too, it's called personal taste. Leave something for the rest of us.

H.

[tightloop]

Walangkatapat

Sure there are SS lovers who are going to put down some big bucks for a blaster...mine cost nearly that...but 2k is not 3200 like an open gun...and the mags aren't 80 bucks for the body, and 30 for the base, ..you can get belt, holster and mag holders for about 100 bucks, or less than half what it costs to outfit a race rig..

like Bob H said, L-10 was a move to appease the guys who were capped at 10 rounds by the AWB...SS is what L-10 should have been in the first place and called Skinny 9...lol, but the formation of SS is at attempt to right that wrong when L-10 was formed...I don't think L-10 should vanish, just make it a part of the SS division...

I just want some diversity in the stages shot..seems that lots of folks have forgotten how to make a stage interesting, challenging, without just throwing lots of targets and cutiesy props at it..stage design is another thread entirely, but there needs to be variation and challenges that test different parts of your game, rather than can you squat really low to shoot thru this low port, can you run really fast to engage these 15 targets spread over 45 yards and do you have a mag big enough to do all that w/o reloading...

[ima45dv8]

Since we've drifted the thread this far, I'd like to add that anyone who feels the current flavor of stages at local matches don't meet their expectations should contact their match director and offer a sweat-equity solution. Design it and build it -- they will come. If anyone isn't playing the game because of lack of what they consider "appropriate" stages, then either Work to change the situation or learn to live with it. Keystrokes alone won't get it done.

Edited June 30, 2006 by ima45dv8