10 Round Limits Help Our Fellow Shooters.

[Bigbadaboom]

I've noticed a lot of folks in the Benosverse believe that there is no real practical need for L10 division or limiting Production division to 10 rounds. I see a lot of members feel that they are divisive issues and if we were rid of them we'ld be better off, and since the "Assault Weapons Ban" sunset why do we need them?

I'm going to express my opinion regarding the matter. I'm not saying that anyone has to agree with me and I'm not asking for a debate on the issue (But I'm sure one may ensue).

With the passing of the 1994 AWB some States made their own versions and had them pass in case the National AWB sunset. There are some States that still have a "10 round max. in a feeding device" law in effect. USPSA wants everyone who wishes to be able to enjoy our great sport to do so. Let's say that today, 05/08/2006, Joe Shooter sitting at his office in San Francisco is cruising the net and comes across this site or another and reads how great USPSA/IPSC is. Joe decides that he's going to look into getting into this sport. He shops around and finds a range and decides "This is great. I'm going to get into this." Joe starts looking for a gun. He decides he likes Limited and finds out that the "Zip-Bang" gun for Limited is the wide body S_I/PARA/Caspian.....etc......etc. Well, in California you can't get ammunition feeding devices that hold more than 10 rounds so Joe decides he'll shoot Limited 10. He gets a Kali legal S_I and all his stuff and goes out and starts practicing and gets good and decides he's going to shoot the nationals. By the time Joe gets to the Nationals the 10 round rule has been completely done away with. No more L10 so Joe has to compete in Limited division but due to the laws of his State he doesn't have any mags that hold more than 10 rounds plus all of his training has centered around reloading per L10 shooting. Joe just got screwed not only by his States Government but also by USPSA members who screamed "Get rid of L10 and all 10 round limits".

Basically, and again this is my opinion, by saying get rid of L10 and 10 round limitations in USPSA your saying "Screw you. I don't care if your State is so screwed up that they don't allow you to own "Hi-cap" mags, I don't like 10 round limits so USPSA needs to get rid of those divisions." This attitude isn't real inviting to new shooters from States where the laws are restrictive.

You might say "Well if their State has those laws then keep those divisions in their State." This attitude takes them out of having a chance to shoot big matches above the State level.

Yuo might say "Since we now have the preliminary Single Stack division they can shoot that so we don't need L10." Now you are taking them from 10 rounds and mandating that they can only have 8-9.

The previous has been directed mainly toward L10 so now I'll address Production.

Production division was started so that Joe Shooter could get into USPSA and not have to spend a fortune on gun & gear. By saying "Get rid of the 10 round limit" your saying that someone who has a S.A. 9mm XD just has to suck up the fact that he gets 2 less rounds than someone who owns a gun with mags that hold 2-4 more rounds than his/hers or buy a new gun. Not to mention the whole Kommi State issue again.

I'm in Florida and I love it. I shoot Limited and I love it. I can cram 20 rounds in each of my mags and I love it. I've tried Production division because I wanted to get closer to what I carry. I found that shooting Limited takes care of that issue just fine. I don't care what others do or in what division they shoot. I see "Division hiding" and "Sandbagging" just as I have since I started shooting this sport prior to L10 and Production. We won't get rid of them by deleting divisions. We'll only lose members and discourage people from joining.

We need Limited 10 division and Production to maintain the 10 round limitation. We need them so we can gain members and so that every law abiding person in the U.S.A. has a chance to shoot this great sport.

[Wildman]

Go, Daniel!

[Nolan]

Thanks for putting my sentiments into words! I also think most of the threads on "hiding" in other divisions are just another issue with divisions with 10 round limits.

I've said it before and I keep saying it. The NHRA has hundreds of classes and is quite successfull. SASS has many more divisions than USPSA and they seem to be doing pretty well! More divisions = more participation both by new shooters and burnt out shooters wanting a change.

Nolan

[BigDave]

The NHRA has hundreds of classes and is quite successfull.

When I read that post, the NHRA is exactly what I was thinking of. Sure, you can go nuts with a 5000 hp top fulie, but there is something sexy about pushing the envelope with a set of restrictions on equipment. It really pulls out the other fundamental elements of this game that some claim are long forgotten - the ability to shoot well, reload, plan.

[Ron Ankeny]

We need them so we can gain members and so that every law abiding person in the U.S.A. has a chance to shoot this great sport.

I agree.

[Middle Man]

Reading the previous threads re: division related hiding/sandbagging it seems that some shooters want to blame the 10 round capacity for creating the hiding/sandbaggers and their mental shortcomings (i.e. fear).

From my point of view, 10 round only divisions and fearful competitiors are two distinct things to dislike. It just so happens that the 10 round only divisions enables and provides opportunities to those that feel the need to "hide". Some of the previous opinions have rolled their dislike for these two items into one big gripe creating a unecessary rift among like minded individuals.

I shoot skinny L-10's because that's what I presently own and I happen to enjoy it very much. I have no problem with the 10 round limitations as they relate to competition. I do abhor legislatively imposed 10 rounds limitations as an insult to our collective liberty.

Nolan's NHRA analogy is superb.

Edited May 8, 2006 by Middle Man

[MikeFoley]

While I personally have no use whatsoever for Limited 10, I have come to realize through this forum, and through my attendance at major matches, just how important it is to those who shoot it. While it doesn't make sense to me, it obviously has a place. I also like the Single Stack Division idea, and feel those who like L10 and criticize a new division are a little hypocritical. This new division offers something to choose from for those who may not play otherwise, and for some of us who are already here (and don't want to shoot L10). I have also stated previously that Production should be opened up to full capacity. I understand the state laws differ on magazine capacities, but accepting this is unstomachable to many because it is so anti-gun. Lots of strong feelings once again on both sides of that issue. I truly think Production is just starting to fly on its own, and that maybe it should remain the same. Heck IDPA is still 10 rounds too. Recently, I made the suggestion of an accross the divisions classification instead of classifying in each, and I think that would solve some of the so-called hiding. I wonder if the ban had never happened, what our divisions would look like? I am starting to be neutral toward these divisions, since they only affect me when I dabble in them. They are all fun, and obviously all mean something to someone.

[Chuck D]

Daniel.....

Thank You !!!

[SteveZ]

Well there goes that idea! See... I was planning on writing an article for the USPSA Front Sight ( after the last issue said "send us articles" ) along with a shooting buddy about the past, present and future of L10...I even went to the point of asking ChuckD to give his side from a "restricted state" point of view...but you just went and summarized the exact point that I (and others) have been trying to make ever since SSD was introduced as the "replacement" for L10.

L10 needs to stay...now matter how misguided some of the powers that be...want to see it end.

[dajarrel]

Well written, Daniel.

New divisions shouldn't be created with the idea of deleting others.

dj

[Gary Stevens]

Would it not be logical then to create an Open 10 for those shooters in the restricted states? Why Limited and not Open?

Gary

[BritinUSA]

Magazine capacity does not indicate competitiveness. A difference in some Production guns of 2-4 rounds does not make a gun unsuitable for competition. In a stage with more than 10 rounds there is always a place to do a reload and with practice this can be accomplished without a problem.

Some countries (like Canada) restrict magazine capacity and when Canadians compete overseas they can either shoot their restricted magazines or borrow some hi-cap ones when they get to the match.

The same can be done in this country for those states that restrict magazine capacity.

As Gary Stevens pointed out, why not have an OPEN-10 ?

If the reasons for a Limited 10 are so valid then there should be an OPEN-10 as well.

And while we are at it, how about Production-10 and Production-IPSC ?

We have too many divisions in my opinion

[Jim Norman]

Gary, I advocated that very idea several years ago. Allow every option and enhancement in O-10 that is allowed in Open,except for capacity.

I have to assume that that is what is shot in Hawaii.

In IPSC as opposed to USPSA there is Canada where all divisions are 10 rounds. Period.

Jim Norman

[Ron Ankeny]

Why Limited and not Open?

I think the answer to that is pretty obvious.

[XRe]

There's a school of thought that suggests that a 10 round limit in Production adds an interesting dimension in that more than a very few pistols would be considered competitive. The idea behind the division, of course, was to give the average Joe who just bought a Glock, or a Ruger, or a Sig, or whatever can come play and be relatively competitive with his box stock pistol from just about any manufacturer (I'm not including HiPoints in that list... ).

This has allowed a small resurgence in participation by gun manufacturers who have largely ignored or abandoned USPSA/IPSC because their guns weren't competitive or weren't being used by our sport. There's a big advantage to manufacturer participation. If you make only a small handful of platforms competitive (at this point, a well tuned SP-01 or a Glock 34 would appear to be the two main rigs), you sacrifice the participation of various manufacturers...

So, I think it makes sense to keep that limit in Production, regardless of whatever gun laws are out there. Even if it resulted initially from legislation, I think it adds a useful dimension to the division that allows a richer cross section of the manufacturers out there to come and play - and that's a good thing, in my opinion.

Limited-10 I understand (and I shoot...). If it went away, it would bug me a bit, cause I'd have about $300 worth of gear I couldn't use in competition anymore (mags, leather, etc). I do see how it's useful for our brothers in states that won't allow them to play with full capacity mags - it gives them a division to play the same in, regardless of which state they're in at the time.

However - unlike Production, L-10 is dominated by the same guns that win in Limited. As Gary points out, restrictions on full capacity mags don't seem to stop Open shooters from being highly competitive in their division when they play in states w/o mag capacity limits. It would be the same thing for these guys shooting (artificially 10 round) Limited. The guys who are currently playing L-10 w/ single stackers could, for the most part, play SSD. The guys with fat guns could play Limited.

If Limited-10 went away, there'd be some grumbling, but I don't think it would be the end of the world, as long as there's a limited capacity 1911-ish division for single stacks to play in.

[GTOSHootr]

I see the point about 10 round Open. However, as a MAsshole, we have even greater, and frankly more frustrating restrictions to consider than the mag capacity that would make finding even a good 10 round Open gun a headache too. The actual list of handguns we can buy off the shelf is short and vague. For instance, I think the only new .38 Super 1911 we can buy is the SW Doug Keonig model. The rest are .45s from Smith, Para, and AO, and of those there are no 9mms. No STI, Kimber, Springfield. Of course, once you're in the sport we find ways to get into Open and Limited competitively. It makes Production and Limited 10 absolutely essential for us to bring in the new shooters, even more so because the idea behind guns for those classes being easy to obtain carries a little more weight here since you really don't have many other options even when you take budget out of the picture.

On the positive side, for all the problems, living in Massachusetts I have some wicked good clubs, and of course, the one and only Rob Boudrie. Also, SV has stepped up and jumped through the red tape so we can order their guns too.

Edited May 9, 2006 by GTOSHootr

[1911user]

So, new shooters with 1911 style 45s are forced to use 8 round mags potentially on 9 round arrays. The people most unsure of themselves (new shooters) are put in a situation where they can't miss and must reload everytime a foot moves? If they chose a non-single action, then they can have 10 rounds and maybe a miss or 2, but not the major power single stack user.

If L-10 goes away, the 9 round arrays need to go also. All classifiers should provide for a minimum of 1 mandatory reload so shooters must prove their reload skills under time pressure rather than buying their way out of having to reload.

It seems ironic, but new shooters should start in open where they only focus on shooting then advance to limited then production or single stack as their skills increase and planning and performing multiple reloads isn't a problem. Instead, it's the opposite.

Edited May 9, 2006 by 1911user

[GTOSHootr]

I know Hdgun, Round Gun Shooter, or 10mmDave are going to speak up, so I'll say it, if you take Production and Limited 10 out of our reach here in MA, we could always recruit more Revolver shooters. We have great leadership in that department in those guys.

[mcb]

L-10 is also nice for those of us that own 40S&W guns that were built on conversions of 9mm framed guns. ie Springfield Armory XD-40 and Beretta 96 are good examples. Both guns use 9mm width 40 cal magazines so they will never be able to hold 18+ round in a 140mm lengthy magazine that are needed to be competitive in Limited. Sure you can use them in Production but now your severely limited to the modification and equipment you can use. Not to mention you now have to reload or your shoot factory that will usually be Major but be getting scored Minor. Limited-10 lets you take one of these 9mm framed 40S&W guns and shoot full power Major loads and make lots of mods to your weapon just as the Limited guys. Yeah sort of a lame niche reason but its the reason I shoot L-10 with my XD-40. Not to mention all those poor Limited guys are missing out on all those extra reloads the L-10 guys get to do.

mcb

[Gary Stevens]

Ron, Help me out because the answer to my question is not obvious to me.

As to anyone being forced to shoot a 8+1 gun against 9 round arrays, no one is forced to shoot any division, it is their choice. I chose to do it in Area 6. That being said, I would expect a move to return to the 8 round limit on target arrays in the new USPSA rulebook.

Gary

[ima45dv8]

If L-10 goes away, the 9 round arrays need to go also.

Even if L-10 does not go away (and I sincerely hope it does not), the required-rounds-per-position should go back to 8. That would make the new PSSD much more attractive.

Edited May 9, 2006 by ima45dv8

[mcb]

The number of rounds per array never made much sense to me. I have only been shooting for a little over a year but does it really matter? The revolver guys (of which I am one) are always forced to do a few standing reloads. Rarely are all the stages at a match revolver friendly, often none are. So since all the shooter in a particular division are going to see the same layout and likely have to do the same number of standing reloads what difference does in make if they are 6, 8 or 9 shot arrays?

mcb

[ima45dv8]

Ron, Help me out because the answer to my question is not obvious to me.

As to anyone being forced to shoot a 8+1 gun against 9 round arrays, no one is forced to shoot any division, it is their choice. I chose to do it in Area 6. That being said, I would expect a move to return to the 8 round limit on target arrays in the new USPSA rulebook.

Gary

Nice talking to you on this during this weekend's A6 match, Gary. I hope the BOD can decide to return to the "No more than 8 rounds required from a shooting position" stance in the near future. In terms of making the division fun to shoot, which I think is a key element in the success of any division, the synergy of 8 rounds in a mag with 8 rounds per array makes sense.

Edited May 9, 2006 by ima45dv8

[1911user]

Magazine capacity does not indicate competitiveness. A difference in some Production guns of 2-4 rounds does not make a gun unsuitable for competition. In a stage with more than 10 rounds there is always a place to do a reload and with practice this can be accomplished without a problem.

For as long as I've been around USPSA I've been hearing that mag capacity doesn't make any difference and reloading shouldn't slow anyone down, yet the better shooters in limited and open aggressively minimize reloading requirements. How many threads have there been on stuffing "just one more round" into an already packed 140/170 mag? Reloading often doesn't seem to be a problem unless it's in limited or open then it becomes a big issue. IMHO mag capacity does make a competitive difference but it is taboo to admit it openly.

Edited May 9, 2006 by 1911user

[sturmruger]

Sorry guys but I shoot almost exclusively in Production. I am not hiding out here, I shoot it because I like changing mags and the thought that it takes when tackling a large field course. I also like keeping all my equipment simple.

When I first started shooting in production the XD was only available with 15 round mags. If there was no mag restriction I would be shooting against a lot of Glock shooters who had 17 rounds available to them which isn't exactly fair. Plus when anyone wants to shoot their .40 they would be stuck with 12 rounds in a XD, and 15 rounds in a Glock. At that point only guns with the largest capacity would be competitive.