10 Round Limits Help Our Fellow Shooters.

[Bigbadaboom]

I am a watcher from the side at the moment, and all this talk of mag capacity makes me wonder, how many rounds are shot on average?

I am thinking of going to my first match and since I do have a production gun (1 on the list and 1 not) so I was wondering ho many mags do you need (since they can only contain 10)?

Thanks, this is a great forum.

6 mags and 5 mag pouches seems to work really well for most prodution shooters. Stages are between 6 and 32 rounds on average.

[raz-0]

I am thinking of going to my first match and since I do have a production gun (1 on the list and 1 not) so I was wondering ho many mags do you need (since they can only contain 10)?

I get by in L10 just fine with 4 pouches and 5 mags. In 2+ years, I've only ever been down to my last mag once, and that stage was a trainwreck.

Daniel, I agree with what you said 100%.

[Wakal]

The Clinton-approved 10-round artificial magazine limitations were set up because of the now-defunct and hopelessly misnamed "Assault Weapons Ban," not because of a few "behind enemy line" states. I feel for the folks behind the lines, having been sentenced (and then released with no time off for good behavior, imagine that) to three years in Gulag Hawaii (some nice folks, a great climate, insane politicians)...BUT making 46 states pay for the evil of four is not the reason that US production is 10 or why L10 is, well, "ten."

It was to allow people to shoot circa 1994-2004 without paying scalper's prices for magazines or so folks wouldn't have to build their own from...old magazine parts.

Two years ago, that ten round crap left the building.

Now we have 19-round Glock mags available everywhere (I know, I bought a dozen before I fled the States a few months back ), magazines for everything...even Caspians...available at or near the "old" prices, and the law restricting their sale gone.

I read with both interest and amusement, in this and related threads, people whining about their single stacks being competitive in L10 but not Limited. Well, guess what, Junior Chipmunks, the Big Chipmunks came up with a new Division for single stacks. It is designed for single stacks, but the name eludes me...Only Eight Rounds? Browning Is Our King? Skinny Guns 'R' Us? Something like that I thought of it as another place to shoot my CDP gun, but that was me

Since the poor benighted souls living in The Back Pocket Of Evil only compete with other folks with Clinton-Approved magazines, that argument doesn't wash. And since the entire countries that are Evil-Friendly seem to come down to the US and do just fine with real magazines instead of the nightmares they are forced to live with, the "we won't do well out of our own little fiefdom, so YOU comply with OUR rules even though you live in America and we live in Amerika" argument doesn't fly either.

I'm all for discussion, but those are the only three straw men ("oh, my aching single stack," "oh, be stuck with my state's crappy gun laws because I have to," and "oh, I won't do well outside my state because you don't have to put up with the same thing I do and thus have an advantage") I see and they keep falling apart under suitable application of logic.

My (now "ex" but hopefully "again") club had no problem with folks showing up with Kahr 9's and such. We enjoy loading magazines during the long courses of fire for the new shooter who only has three magazines; it is fun for the shooter and entertains us. We all carry common guns and magazines (I used to keep "instant USPSA competitor, just add...competitor" kits in my truck, as did quite a few of the Usual Suspects) so we could share. We had a lot of new shooters. Almost all of them Got The Point that more bb's was better than less bb's.

Most of those were military, though, and understood what "Practical" means. Limiting your capacity to please a politician isn't Practical

Alex

[BritinUSA]

1

[Bigbadaboom]

Wakal, Have you read any of my posts in this thread?

What you are saying is "Screw them. They only have to compete with only 10 rounds in a mag in their own State so if they want to shoot an Area or National match they just need to figure out how to get some hi-caps and shoot and practice hi-cap shooting somehow. We shouldn't have L10 or 10 rounds in production because everyone can buy a Glock and shoot umteen rounds in production."

Democracy= 10 Wolves and 2 sheep holding a vote on what is for supper.

Edited May 11, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Vlad]

The Clinton-approved 10-round artificial magazine limitations were set up because of the now-defunct and hopelessly misnamed "Assault Weapons Ban," not because of a few "behind enemy line" states. I feel for the folks behind the lines, having been sentenced (and then released with no time off for good behavior, imagine that) to three years in Gulag Hawaii (some nice folks, a great climate, insane politicians)...BUT making 46 states pay for the evil of four is not the reason that US production is 10 or why L10 is, well, "ten."

Seriously ... who is forcing you to shoot production or L10? Is there some evil overload making you not shoot open or limited? If you love high capacity shooting, there seem to be a couple of divisions available for you.

Most of those were military, though, and understood what "Practical" means. Limiting your capacity to please a politician isn't Practical

Right .. and your M9 has 170mm mags with 29 rounds and a Cmore? And the new sevice pistol specs request 20 rounds of 40, not the actual 8rd capacity with 10 or more for extended mags that they put on paper, but they are keeping it a secret. And just about everyone who carries a gun, packs a 2011 with a giant magwell and a one inch long ejection button, just like very other limited gun. Give me a break. Practical means different things to different people in different circumstances. My guess is that the soldier facing 15 targets with a pistol, ducks behind covers and calls for air support, as it wouldn't be practical to charge them.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Vlad

[Greg Jones]

They only have to compete with only 10 rounds in a mag in their own State so if they want to shoot an Area or National match they just need to figure out how to get some hi-caps and shoot and practice hi-cap shooting somehow.

Just to add to this, it might be worthwhile to remember that even in some 'free' states there are cities that have enacted their own version of the AWB, putting limits on magazine capacity. Living in Columbus, OH I currently cannot have magazines with a capacity of 20+ and I believe some other cities in Ohio are even more restrictive.

[D.Hayden]

Greg.. can't have or can't buy? Just curious..

[Flexmoney]

Yep, there are all kind of reasons that "less than maximum capacity possible" (10 rounds) are good.

- legal issues with various governments

- economical issues...Para, Caspian, STI, SV...all still $50 per mag, right?

- economical issues...many guns...that people own...can compete in USPSA Production. It's not just the very highest capacity gun in 9mm.

- practical issues...as mention, very few carry CCW with our Limited and Open competitive guns. ( I think they make good house guns, maybe entry guns...but, we don't hear much support for that beyond our circles.)

- practical issues...reloading the gun. Skill.

- practical issues...break down the stages...problem solving skills.

- practical issues...round management

- practical issues...accuracy requirement (see round management)

[Chuck D]

"Two years ago, that ten round crap left the building."

Not everywhere....

"Seriously ... who is forcing you to shoot production or L10? Is there some evil overload making you not shoot open or limited? If you love high capacity shooting, there seem to be a couple of divisions available for you."

This runs contrary to the "all or nothing" mentality...

"...BUT making 46 states pay for the evil of four is not the reason that US production is 10 or why L10 is, well, "ten.""

Really....

"... it might be worthwhile to remember that even in some 'free' states there are cities that have enacted their own version of the AWB, putting limits on magazine capacity."

Disease spreads... L10 haters don't come crying to me when it effects you !

Flexmoney, thanks for making perfect sense.

Edited May 11, 2006 by Chuck D

[ipscbob]

Boy, this subject never fails to bring the assholes out of the woodwork. OOPS, maybe this one should have been closed long ago!

[Lurper]

Daniel,

I think you missed the point of my earlier post, so let me restate it. If courses are properly designed there is no reason for L10 including restrictive state laws. 6 shot arrays with some movement between arrays negates any advantage. What I find troubling is the defeatist mindset that capacity makes a difference. On a properly designed course, TGO, Todd or any of the other great shooters with single stacks will still win over high cap.

As I said in my first post, I don't have a strong opinion of L10 either way. I just think that there is no reason for it. While I sympathize with those who live in those people's republics, the solution to their problems doesn't lie within the USPSA rules.

[Ben Stoeger]

I On a properly designed course, TGO, Todd or any of the other great shooters with single stacks will still win over high cap.

Why is this the case?

I have seen a few stages that I thought were great... but gave Hi Cap guns an advantage. Is that a bad thing?

[Greg Jones]

Greg.. can't have or can't buy? Just curious..

Can't buy or have within the city limits-same applies for any gun that doesn't fit the Columbus AWB criteria. In Ohio I can legally buy 20+ capacity mags and/or an open gun, or an AR from a dealer outside the city limits but to stay legal I would have to keep them outside the city limits.

[Bigbadaboom]

Boy, this subject never fails to bring the assholes out of the woodwork. OOPS, maybe this one should have been closed long ago!

If you don't like the thread then please don't visit it.

Daniel,

I think you missed the point of my earlier post, so let me restate it. If courses are properly designed there is no reason for L10 including restrictive state laws. 6 shot arrays with some movement between arrays negates any advantage. What I find troubling is the defeatist mindset that capacity makes a difference. On a properly designed course, TGO, Todd or any of the other great shooters with single stacks will still win over high cap.

As I said in my first post, I don't have a strong opinion of L10 either way. I just think that there is no reason for it. While I sympathize with those who live in those people's republics, the solution to their problems doesn't lie within the USPSA rules.

There are few people in this sport that feel that way.

If you have a 32 round course with ports, 6 round array through each port. I have 21 rounds in my gun and you have 11. We are both of equal skill. I'll smoke you. All things being equal between us I'll smoke you on the stage because I have less movement involved than you do. All great shooters state that "Economy of Motion" is one of the, if not "The" most important aspect of this sport. Every little move that I can leave out of a stage gives me an advantage, including 2 extra reloads.

Also, don't let us forget make-up shots. You can spout "Then you need to work on accracy." all you wish but even Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham, Eric G., Shannon Smith, etc....etc....fire make-up shots. I'll bet that Flex, Jake, Steve A., and others on here fire make-up shots not only for misses but for "D" hits. My skill stayed stagnant untill I learned to make the shot up if my sight pic. isn't perfect when the shot breaks.

Stage design isn't going to give you an advantage or equalize you in the mag capacity area unless it's a stand & shoot and they've already adressed that with the 9 round rule.

[eric nielsen]

[edit]

Short version: We have four divisions now that limit your capacity to 10 rounds or less.

If that's reduced to 2 or 3, then you still can choose which ristricted-capacity division you'd like to play in. I think y'all that can't shoot hi-caps would get more satisfaction out of competing against most/all the OTHER capacity-restricted shooters. Instead of shooting against 1/4.

Edited May 11, 2006 by eric nielsen

[ipscbob]

If you don't like the thread then please don't visit it.

Daniel,

It's not the thread I object to, I support it's original substance more than you will ever understand! Don't presume to understand my circumstances or character. I hate having to get up every morning and be an activist and put my neck out on the line just to retain what rights I have left. Whether you realise it or not, those of us who do this are prolonging your rights as well since historically gun control measures start in the liberal states and spread nationally. This is made much worse by coming to forums like this and having the same line of BS handed to me by people from within our own community! How about displaying just a small amount of unity for the good of USPSA? I pay too much in dues and contribute too much to the sport to have to be under attack from within the organisation. The attitudes exhibited here by some are similiar to those of the politicians in my state trying to take away our firearms. ie. "If I don't feel that I need access to something or see any value in it, then you don't either and since I am in the seat of power right now, I am going to decide for you." L10 is VERY important to those of us in these states! Maybe those who suggest that we move out of our homes to firearm friendly states should consider moving to a restrictive state like california or new york to help fight for our collective rights.

I merely suggested that this thread was breaking Brian's ban on politics but the double standard of allowing politics in this forum when it is PC and NOT at other times speaks for itself.

Edited May 11, 2006 by ipscbob

[Rob Boudrie]

6 shot arrays with some movement between arrays negates any advantage. What I find troubling is the defeatist mindset that capacity makes a difference.

This is just plain wrong, for several reasons:

1. More rounds means more ability for make-up shots. Even if you don't use the make up shots, you may take your shots faster knowing the extra rounds are available if you need them.

2. Moving without a reload is faster than moving with one.

3. Each reload has "fumble risk" - which means the risk of extra time.

4. Freestyle stages with groups of 6 often offer opportunity for creative solutions to the competitor williing to take a longer, or more obscured, shot - if they have the capacity.

The only stages where the capacity is largely neutralized are the classifiers and similar stages with mandatory reloads (such as standards exercises). Claims to the contrary distract from the real issues under discussion.

[Bigbadaboom]

If you don't like the thread then please don't visit it.

Daniel,

It's not the thread I object to, I support it's original substance more than you will ever understand! Don't presume to understand my circumstances or character. I hate having to get up every morning and be an activist and put my neck out on the line just to retain what rights I have left. Whether you realise it or not, those of us who do this are prolonging your rights as well since historically gun control measures start in the liberal states and spread nationally. This is made much worse by coming to forums like this and having the same line of BS handed to me by people from within our own community! How about displaying just a small amount of unity for the good of USPSA? I pay too much in dues and contribute too much to the sport to have to be under attack from within the organisation. The attitudes exhibited here by some are similiar to those of the politicians in my state trying to take away our firearms. ie. "If I don't feel that I need access to something or see any value in it, then you don't either and since I am in the seat of power right now, I am going to decide for you." L10 is VERY important to those of us in these states! Maybe those who suggest that we move out of our homes to firearm friendly states should consider moving to a restrictive state like california or new york to help fight for our collective rights.

I merely suggested that this thread was breaking Brian's ban on politics but the double standard of allowing politics in this forum when it is PC and NOT at other times speaks for itself.

You posted and began calling members A**holes. I don't want my thread closed because you have to break the rules by not being respectful:

"Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful. Please – no antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones.

Please do not post offensive material. If you wouldn't want your 10 year-old to read it, please don't post it. If in doubt about your post's content, please PM a Moderator before posting. "

This is the purpose of my retort stating that if you don't like the thread then please don't visit it.

Governmental political debates have not happened here:

"Politics

Policy or political debates of any kind are not welcome.

Specifically including (but not limited to):"

• 
  
  
• USPSA vs IPSC
  
  
• IPSC vs IDPA
  
  
• STI vs SVI
  
  
• Limited 10 vs Limited Class
  
  
• This Division vs That Division
  
• This Government vs That Government
  
  

Politcs being stated for purposes of discussion substance is not "Political debate".

The rule that people are pushing the line with here is L10 vs. Limited/Division vs. Division. I would not blame Admin if they closed this thread due to it. I've tried to keep it on the topic of "Helping our fellow shooters" but no good deed goes unpunished.

Sometimes I ponder remaining silent on a subject but then the "Be kind and try to help others" part of me kicks in and screws everything up.

Edited May 11, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[Chuck D]

Top 5 reasons to eliminate L10 Division and the facts that dispute them.....

1. Reason, "The AWB Ban is Over. Fact- Not everywhere. In fact two of the highest USPSA membership States (N.Y. and California) are stuck with State versions of the AWB.

2. Reason, "We give away too many awards." Fact- Unless you have the participatory numbers, awards are not mandatory. No one says you have to give awards to a Division that does not have an adequate number of participants in it.

3. Reason, " Good Course Design will balance the equation." Fact- Trying to control or influence course design across the nation is virtually impossible. All the rules and guidelines in the world will not create continuity.

4. Reason, "We have too many Divisions." Fact- If we were to determine which Division(s) stay or go from a participatory standpoint...Revolver Division would have fallen by the wayside YEARS ago. I find this argument the most entertaining because if you ask all whom make this claim...most are in favor of eliminating L10 and REPLACING it with another Division...Single Stack.

5. Reason, "Magazine Capacity does not matter." Fact- Yea...Right. If I had a dollar for every wide-body gun I came across in shooters holsters in the past 10 plus years...I could take the next 6 months off from work. There is a reason for this....more bullets are better than less bullets...depending upon where you live and the laws that govern you.

My number 1 reason for keeping L10. We need it so effected members can remain competitive on a national basis and to draw new shooters. More participants trump more competitors any day. Example...thousands of people play golf but only a few are "competitive" golfers. Should we deny access to golf courses to those who buy a set of clubs "off the shelf" and go out and play for fun?

[boo radley]

Top 5 reasons to eliminate L10 Division and the facts that dispute them.....

1. Reason, "The AWB Ban is Over. Fact- Not everywhere. In fact two of the highest USPSA membership States (N.Y. and California) are stuck with State versions of the AWB.

2. Reason, "We give away too many awards." Fact- Unless you have the participatory numbers, awards are not mandatory. No one says you have to give awards to a Division that does not have an adequate number of participants in it.

3. Reason, " Good Course Design will balance the equation." Fact- Trying to control or influence course design across the nation is virtually impossible. All the rules and guidelines in the world will not create continuity.

4. Reason, "We have too many Divisions." Fact- If we were to determine which Division(s) stay or go from a participatory standpoint...Revolver Division would have fallen by the wayside YEARS ago. I find this argument the most entertaining because if you ask all whom make this claim...most are in favor of eliminating L10 and REPLACING it with another Division...Single Stack.

5. Reason, "Magazine Capacity does not matter." Fact- Yea...Right. If I had a dollar for every wide-body gun I came across in shooters holsters in the past 10 plus years...I could take the next 6 months off from work. There is a reason for this....more bullets are better than less bullets...depending upon where you live and the laws that govern you.

My number 1 reason for keeping L10. We need it so effected members can remain competitive on a national basis and to draw new shooters. More participants trump more competitors any day. Example...thousands of people play golf but only a few are "competitive" golfers. Should we deny access to golf courses to those who buy a set of clubs "off the shelf" and go out and play for fun?

I think, if you're soliciting opinions, there's really a single reason -- a combination of "2" and "4" that makes sense in eliminating L10.

The irony is that I think Single Stack just makes things worse, instead of better, in the short-term anyway, by attracting a subset of L10 shooters. And, of course, SS needs L10 for new shooters, if they wish to see a classification score in the next 3 years. I'm betting they will, if they're willing to pony up $40 for a membership!

If I were Czar, I'd have 3 Divisions: Open/Limited/Stock. Stock would essentially be Production with a 10-round limit; and sub-awards available for single-stack (only allowed to shoot 8-rounds, but scored major), and revolver.

So, suppose you have a California-legal STI and race-holster? No problem -- you shoot Limited, are limited to 10 rounds, but so will every other Limited shooter...When you shoot a match out-of-state, load to 140mm capacity as normal.

The only other thing I'd do, to ensure fairness, would be to scrub the Classifiers so that any that don't require a mandatory reload while shooting are elminated or changed. This way a Limited shooter from NY wouldn't be penalized for a 10-round capacity, in getting classified.

[ima45dv8]

So, suppose you have a California-legal STI and race-holster? No problem -- you shoot Limited, are limited to 10 rounds, but so will every other Limited shooter...When you shoot a match out-of-state, load to 140mm capacity as normal.

Boo, I'm sure Chuck's keys are worn out from answering this, so I'll jump in.

The above solution is based on the asumption that folks in the capacity-restricted states have normal-capacity mags ready to take to these out-of-state matches as you described. Many don't and as long as their laws don't change, never will.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Top 5 reasons to eliminate L10 Division and the facts that dispute them.....

1. Reason, "The AWB Ban is Over. Fact- Not everywhere. In fact two of the highest USPSA membership States (N.Y. and California) are stuck with State versions of the AWB.

There are a lot of new Open and Limited guns sold to USPSA members in both of those states. There must be a lot of pre-ban mags availible.

There were many of us who bought/built a new Open/limited gun during the "Dark Times", we had full-cap mags. No one is going to kick down your door and shoot your dog for 4-20rd STI mags.

2. Reason, "We give away too many awards." Fact- Unless you have the participatory numbers, awards are not mandatory. No one says you have to give awards to a Division that does not have an adequate number of participants in it.

3. Reason, " Good Course Design will balance the equation." Fact- Trying to control or influence course design across the nation is virtually impossible. All the rules and guidelines in the world will not create continuity.

4. Reason, "We have too many Divisions." Fact- If we were to determine which Division(s) stay or go from a participatory standpoint...Revolver Division would have fallen by the wayside YEARS ago. I find this argument the most entertaining because if you ask all whom make this claim...most are in favor of eliminating L10 and REPLACING it with another Division...Single Stack.

5. Reason, "Magazine Capacity does not matter." Fact- Yea...Right. If I had a dollar for every wide-body gun I came across in shooters holsters in the past 10 plus years...I could take the next 6 months off from work. There is a reason for this....more bullets are better than less bullets...depending upon where you live and the laws that govern you.

My number 1 reason for keeping L10. We need it so effected members can remain competitive on a national basis and to draw new shooters. More participants trump more competitors any day. Example...thousands of people play golf but only a few are "competitive" golfers. Should we deny access to golf courses to those who buy a set of clubs "off the shelf" and go out and play for fun?

There are too many Divisions and too many awards, when you can go to a $100 match, win your class and not even get back your match fee, there are too many awards.

[JFD]

L-10 is very popular in SC, and we have no laws regarding standard capacity mags.

I guess we just like to shoot single stack guns out of race holsters (50% of us anyway). So far I've seen 1 shooter switch to the new SS division (he must be "hiding" ). I for one have no urge to throw away almost 30 ten round mags, ghost holsters, and mag pouches that may not be legal (I haven't checked this out because I'll never shoot this division) in SS because there are some people who think the L-10 needs to be eliminated (because they don't understand the attraction) and replaced with something that has no hope of success and will only drive away current members. Now that's just my slanted view, but leave L-10 alone for the 3 years SS is provisional. In 3 years there may be a need for some action, but not now.

I can't be totally alone. I can't drag my wife out of L-10 and she has zero concerns about prizes, level of competition, or anything besides working on her own game (newbie). I've got a tricked out G35, new Ghost and rig, and 10 extended mags all ready to go, but she loves shooting the Kimber in L-10. I guess folks want to piss off a new women shooter. They must figure we don't need new women shooters. I think the life of our sport depends on both new shooters and women shooters.

I say that as long as Revolver division exists, then leave L-10 alone. Note that I hope Revolver continues for the folks who like to shoot wheel guns. It doesn't have a negative effect on me, and I can't see how any division can have a negative effect on any member other than getting his/her butt kicked when they choose to shoot in it.

If you're in the game for prizes, then you picked the wrong game. Please don't try to drag down our game in an attempt to get prizes. CAS proves lots of different divisions attract lots of members. The competitive types will always end up in Limited and Open, so let's quit worrying about the other divisions that may one day end up paying most of the bills.

[Chuck D]

Is it only me or has others noticed those that champion the elimination of L10 and the capacity restrictions in Production come from everywhere else BUT capacity restricted States?

Food for thought.....