Prize Table!

[J.Bagakis]

I thought this would be a good place to ask for thoughts on this subject.

I have mostly seen random draw or raffle for the prize tables at some Revolver matches.

So which is better, Going to the prize table buy order of finish (earning your trip) or luck of the draw (Raffle)?

I recently shot a major Revolver match and the two match winners (not me) did not go to the prize table first, the whole prize table was done by raffle.

I think this is wrong, if we are just going to raffle off the prizes, maybe we should stop calling these matches competitions and just start playing the Lottery.

I asked the match director why he did the whole prize table by raffle and he told me, He and most shooters were tired of see the same Top shooters getting the guns and just selling them.

So please put in your two cents.

On a side note, Randy Lee won one of the revolvers by raffle and gave it to a local shooter that need a good revolver to compete!

Way to go randy!!!!!

Thanks

John

[revchuck]

I've had better luck at raffles.

There could be a middle ground here. First place shooters in each class get a trip to the prize table, then the rest is distributed by raffle.

The best shooters deserve special consideration, but the rest of the joes can get tired of paying the same match fee and walking away empty-handed.

[John Dunn]

Do a search, this has been covered, probably with a poll. I don't care, I don't shoot to win stuff, I'm there for fun.

[pskys2]

Even in ICORE when you have multi-divisions (Open, Limited, etc...) it makes it harder. Then you have the concern over participation in a Division.

An idea I've had would be to give out 1 Ticket to everyone, another ticket to Division Winners, another to Class Winners, etc...

The last place guy would have 1 ticket, the 1st place guy regardless of Division would probably have 4 tickets. Would give a little better odds, but not much. It would also make it more of a hassle for the staff.

Ideally in a match you should have equal top prizes for the division winners, then draw for the others, with some good prizes available. Though I hate drawings, I usually place pretty high in the finishes, but always last in the drawings. In the long run it probably helps the participation to do it by drawing though.

For my own selfish, monetary interests I'd rather see by prizes by finish. As I get older I'm sure it would be better by drawing. And that time is coming quick.

[10mmdave]

boy oh boy !, what a can of worms ..............

I have to agree with the 1st place folks go first, and then the 2nd place folks, and then

the 3rd place folks, and then the 4th, and 5th, and 6th etc. etc. all the way as far as the

prizes go.

Your right john, why practice, spend all sorts of money on ammo, time on reloading it,

club dues, targets, GUNSMITH COSTS if it's all a crap shoot anyway

(and no, I'm not implying it was a crappy shoot, I wasn't there)

I don't know about the rest of you folks but I spend a good chunk of my paycheck on the

above items, and spend the big $$$ on airfare, hotel and rentals and then I get to watch the

133rd place guy/gal go up 1st and pick the shiny new gun off the table

I DON'T FRIGGEN THINK SO !

And if this was announced AFTER I showed up and already paid all this $$$ and found out

this was the deal I would demand my money back and to be reimbursed for my costs to

get to this "fun shoot" when I signed up for a "competition"

Now, with that said, if I knew all this going in then I would have no room to bitch, but I also

would not spend big match fee's or travel costs to go to such an event.

I would still go to a local (up to 4-5 hrs drive) match just to support it and it would be more for

fun than anything else.

And I'm sorry, but if the excuse is that they're tired of seeing the same faces taking home the

prizes then "they" should practice more !

Why reward mediocrity ?!?

me·di·oc·ri·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (md-kr-t)

n. pl. me·di·oc·ri·ties

The state or quality of being mediocre.

Mediocre ability, achievement, or performance.

One that displays mediocre qualities.

[Matthew_Mink]

I don't shoot competitions to win stuff, but winning and getting a nice new gun sure is a good way to reward all the hard work we put into this game.

I have noticed that shooters who casually compete and never try to get any better want to have prize table raffles. I have also noticed that shooters who train and practice hard and want to win High Overall generally want to have prize tables in order of finish.

I do not think it is fair to reward skill based on chance. If someone is winning all the time, there is a pretty good reason for it.

[sfinney]

I agree with Matt. I hardly ever win anything by order of finish, but if/when I ever do, I like it to mean something!

If I wanted to show up, spend several hours and socialize, to win prizes by random, I'd play Bingo.

[Ron Ankeny]

John Dunn is right, this has been covered before. In fact, we beat it to death.

I have noticed that shooters who casually compete and never try to get any better want to have prize table raffles. I have also noticed that shooters who train and practice hard and want to win High Overall generally want to have prize tables in order of finish.

Gosh, I have noticed the same thing. Go figure.

[TMC]

My .02

When I started shooting I would have liked the raffle but now that I've put in a ton of time I'd like a little reward for my effort.

I go to big matches partially for the prizes, stages I can shoot anytime. When the match entry says X number of guns on the prize table that's motivation. What's the point of better shooters going to a big match if they are going to get a calendar? I can go to a local match, win my class and at least get a 1000 primers!

If you want to raffle a gun or 2 thats fine, but not the whole prize table.

Its a sad day when finishers #1 & #2 are still waiting for thier names to be called after most of the folks have gone home. For me, 3rd overall with 7-8 guns, nice Surefires, scopes, electronic ears and such on the table and you get a knife is a little disapointing. I'll think twice before going to a match like that again.

If that sounds greedy, well......

[AFDavis11]

I prefer both. I want the top prize to go to the top finisher. Let it be a gun everytime or whatever. I also want a raffle prize, doesn't have to be big just something. Ten moonclips or a box of ammo would hardly be prohibitive and I could be one of 10 other guys eligible. Even a T-shirt would be great. If I win once a year I've got something to look forward to and if I see the top guy getting a new gun I'll be there too, cuz someday I might be the top guy. You could have just two prizes, a new gun for overall winner and a bag of candy for the ultimate loser, and I'd show up to compete for both.

[Carmoney]

A few "must be present to win" door prizes to keep people hanging around to watch the awards and clap for the winners might be a good idea, but I think the vast majority of the prizes and recognition should be awarded based on performance.

I'm not a believer in the "class system" but will agree this whole topic had been beaten to death already here and elsewhere.

And yeah, it's just another example of our sport bowing to our society's acceptance of mediocrity and willingness to adopt a pseudo-socialistic mindset.

But as an old pin-shooter, I'm a mercenary from way back!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

When I shoot a major match, my chances of winning the overall are slim to none. I will continue to try.

I am there because I love to shoot. I put time into the sport but not for "prizes" I don't want a trophy, I don't really care about prize tables. If I perform well enough to take a trip to the table all well and good but if I don't, I will support the guy or girl that wins because they earned it.

What all shooters should get is a shooters packet with something in it. Tube of oil, Tee shirt, anything to say we appreciate you spending your time and money to come and hope you come back.

The people that deserve a prize are those working the match as well as those winning. I would give up anything I won to make sure the ROs were taken care of.

Regards,

[D.carden]

Ok, not everyone is born with raw or natural talent. Most of us have to work hard for what we get. Not everyone plays the game for the same reason. Some to win, some for fun.

Alot for both. If it were just for fun I wouldn't be spending the money for match fee's, air-fair, etc. I would only shoot the club level and call it a day. But, there's that desire to "know" where your skills are. We call them Major Matches for a reason. Lets see what you got.......basically !!

Hard work and dedication should be rewarded with the prizes of the highest value going to the competitors "In order of finish".

Think about it. You go to a Major match "for fun" and you "win" your division or class this time and then that other guy/gal just walked-off with with your gun from the prize table as a result of a drawing. That opportunity might not present itself again "ever". So, you earned it, you should go to the table and pick up your steel.

Granted, were not all pro's here. But even the pros will show up to get paid and be first at the table.

I think thats called "the nature of the beast".

[1911 rookie]

Both is a good answer, let it be determined by the match and if you don't like the format don't go. Is this game a hobby or a semi-professional sport?

I suck, so raffles are better odds for me. The guys who take this seriously usually want to be rewarded for it. There is no way to make both sides happy. The closest is that the top shooter usually sell the prize guns below market prices. That's why I will be bringing cash to the IRC

Jason

[George]

If I want to win trinkets by luck of the draw, I can go buy raffle tickets at my local Kiwanis club. Competitions have no business rewarding anything but the order of finish. Door prize raffles are a different story and are not to be confused with the prizes that are there to reward your level of physical and material investment in preparing for the challenge of "competition" ;-)

[AikiDale]

I think I'd like to see the top finishers win the cash and the Sponsors should be able to market their goods by raffle. Everybody wins!

After thinking about it, I'd really like to see HOA and 1st place in each division get the loot. Letting match sponsors give goodies away to those of us who have not won a match yet is good advertising for them, exposes their products to newer shooters and gives them a reason to stay involved in our sport.

After coming in 82nd place I don't bother visiting the prize table (I think it's an ego problem).

Edited April 26, 2006 by AikiDale

[Bubber]

Random draw is fine if it is a minimal entry fee, and you know ahead of time. I don't shoot for prizes, (well I do but I never win much) But if it is a raffle all the way through there is no recognition for your shooting that day.

[Alan Meek]

Prize tables should always be by order of finish.

That is from probably one of the longest members in B Class.

Alan

[revoman]

Prize table Top Open , Top Stock then class A,B,C and D winner. Then 2nd in class A, B, C and D so on until the end. Seems to work and every class is rewarded equal. Lets face it the class D winner is just as proud of their accomplishments as is the overall winner and both should be rewarded for their showings.

Base of the shooters are B and C shooters who do strive to become A or better but as luck or skill will have it they will always remain B and C shooters. They come to every match and with their entries and dedication and usually help as RO's they should be rewarded.

I have sat out of competion for a few years (beyond my control) and now that I am starting to get back in. I am still in B Class in ICORE and if I had stayed in I would be in A Class, less than 4% keeps me out. The point is that if I finished 3rd in B Class I would feel that winners of C and D should go to the prize table before me as with the 2nd place finishers in those 2 classes. As they have competed fairly in their class and should be recognized for the effort and I should not go before them even if my times were faster as I competed against B Class not C or D.

Remember what keeps the matches going are your mid range shooters. Look at the entrys and see the ratio of Master and A shooters to B, C and D. If all matches had to survive on entries alone and the only ones coming are Master and A, then matches would soon die out. Also who spends more of their hard earned money on powder, bullets, primers, holsters, etc, etc, the mid class shooters.

Don't get me wrong the sport needs the top shooters and I enjoy watching and competing against them, but lets not forget what makes up the core of our sport.

My 2 cents

[Bruce]

I enjoy reading this topic no matter how many times it comes up. Brings out some interesting comments.

Let the big dogs eat first, that is my view. If I need a new gun I have Benny's phone number.

I don't know Randy, never talked with him...but he sounds like first class all the way. Whomever he gave that revo to will remember it until he dies. Good on you, Randy. You make us all look better.

[John Heiter]

I think it's good to do both which is why I'm kind of partial to the way we do ours. I'm not taking credit for it because someone started it this way long before I came along but we give out plaques and checks to the high finishers and category winners so we are rewarding skill for half of the awards ceremony but then we raffle off the prize table. I'd rather see that vendor's product in the hands of some lucky joe blow who will cherish it than watch some GM win it knowing they picked it up because it would bring the most value on the USPSA classifieds come Monday. I've seen top finishers take presses over frames from big tables just because they didn't want the hassle of having to do an FFL when they sell it.

[Carmoney]

I don't know Randy, never talked with him...but he sounds like first class all the way. Whomever he gave that revo to will remember it until he dies. Good on you, Randy. You make us all look better.

I'll wholeheartedly agree. Very classy move.

[ong45]

Your opinion on this subject will likely have something to do with your order in the food chain.

[pmd]

I've only been to two events that have had actual "prize tables" (The Big Dawg in Iowa and Steel Challege in California). At both these matches everyone got a prize in the order they shot. Both of these events were well run and everyone was happy (I think..).

I've been to other (non-IPSC) matches where prior to the match starting they randomly draw competitors names for prizes (basically door prizes).

Once the match is complete and the scores are tallied, and cash awards are distributed using the "Lewis System". I am not crazy about this system but it does work to reward shooters on their performance and it does define separate classes of shooters So an average shooter gets a chance to win monies - here most people appear to be content with the system.

Ok, so to sum up how I feel - In my opinion it's only fair to allow a competitior to go to the prize table based on the order of their performance (and not by luck of the draw). As far as which class or division - that would be up to the folks setting up the match.

On the flip side - I also feel that the people setting up the match do have the right to distribute the prizes as they see fit - I may not agree with how they distribute - but provided they announce how the prizes are to be distributed well in advance - a competitor has the option of not attending if they do not like the prize structure.

Just my 2cents..

Paul

Edited April 27, 2006 by pmd

[revchuck]

That is from probably one of the longest members in B Class.

Trolling for companionship again, are we?

I probably shouldn't post before my first cup of coffee...