Single Stack, Live Or Die?

[JFD]

For those who expected an exodus of shooters from L-10, I have to ask WHY???

There have been many threads here with non-L-10 shooters crying over the horrible disadvantage of those poor folks in L-10 shooting single stacks against those unfair downloaded double stacks.

However I never recall seeing a post by an actual L-10 shooter who felt disadvantaged. Of course there were many posts from SS shooters who didn't care what the opposition was shooting and appreciated the equipment freedom available in L-10. Of course this isn't what the non-L-10 shooters wanted to hear. Ignoring feedback from actual SS shooters is not part of a good planning process. It also appears the old "it's the Indian not the arrow" talk is just BS from folks with really cool custom arrows.

I'm hoping our BOD will keep in mind we are not IDPA. If we wanted IDPA, then we would shoot IDPA. If USPSA shooters wanted restrictive equipment rules, then Production and SS would be the pick of 99% of our shooters. Common sense and research instead of wishful thinking would be part of a real planning process.

You want the SS division to take off? Then go with L-10 rules and simply restrict all guns to SS only. All that we have now with SS is a division for folks to "play" at "the good old days", which is fun because they get to buy a bunch of new stuff. Then they'll finally figure out that the "good old days" really wasn't, and that they should have been calling that time period "the days before great equipment was available". Of course by that time they will have killed off L-10 in order to "give the 1911 division a chance" (or some such crap) and will find SS is still a loser.

The only way the 1911 Only Division would have had a hope of being successful would be if the Single Stack Society was made up of a super high percentage of USPSA members (that would indicate an actual interest in a "protected" SS division). I doubt seriously if that's the case.

All I ask is that L-10 NOT be ruined by bad ideas until the SS officially dies. By that time I'll have switched my wife over to Limited with me (I really got tired of the constant L-10 attacks). That way I won't have to think about how much money I wasted on L-10 gear (20 mags, Ghost holsters, etc). Too bad about the sponsors we as a sport already have who sold me that stuff and won't be selling me more. But then again, nobody seems to take into account or care who may be hurt by this 3 year wishful thinking experiment.

I do hope I'm wrong, but unless the business sense that allows me to be a big part of generating tens of millions of dollars in profit for a company that actually "requires" solid planning and research, and does not allow wishful thinking to be part of the business plan has been totally lost. Maybe dumb luck will prevail for once.

Sorry for the reality break (probably ignored anyway), but talk of screwing around with L-10 irritates me to the point I can no longer pretend that the provisional division makes any sense.

[Gary Stevens]

Let's be perfectly clear on one thing. I am not speaking of messing around with L-10 in anyway. I will 99 percent sure vote against any change in L-10. So any rocks being thrown my way need to be redirected to other targets.

I will say this though, I expect a major assault on L-10 in the near future, but it won't come from me.

Gary

[MikeFoley]

Several of us shot single stack on the second run today. It was great fun, and a reminder that making shots count are very important, a refreshing reminder we don't get in Limited too much. You actually have to be able to shoot 8 shots and get 8 hits, or do some standing reloads from slide lock. This reinforces the importance of shooting accurately and not hosing for hopers. Those two rounds make a difference, so I challenge all the nay sayers to try it.

[38superman]

Let's be perfectly clear on one thing. I am not speaking of messing around with L-10 in anyway. I will 99 percent sure vote against any change in L-10. So any rocks being thrown my way need to be redirected to other targets.

I will say this though, I expect a major assault on L-10 in the near future, but it won't come from me.

Gary

Would you care to elaborate?

Why do you think there is an assault on L10 in the pipeline?

Tls

[Chuck D]

"Why do you think there is an assault on L10 in the pipeline?"

Without question.....

No new gun or related purchases have been made or will be made by me until L-10's future is secured. In the balance lies my membership renewal. SS will be the division touted to replace L10...no doubt in my mind.

JFD's post is dead on point.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Chuck D

[Flexmoney]

One thing I have noticed that is a good side benefit of the Single Stack, is my accuracy has greatly improved. Simply put when you are limited to 8+1 you have to make them count. Actually watching the sight and making a good trigger pull is becoming more natural with the SS than when I am shooting a higher capacity gun. I hope that this carries over when I switch back to the increased capacity guns.

I don't mean this in any disrespect, but I think some are hesitant to give up the 2 extra rounds that L-10 gives you because they doubt their accuracy potential and may need to make up a shot or two.

Gary

Limited-8 rocks!

I've mentioned this before, but there are/were a couple of matches that I used to shoot that were run as Limited-8 (local rule matches, no affiliation with any organization).

I loved it. The matches were 8 in the gun to start (not 8+1), but I don't think that would matter much if it were 8+1.

Usually, the target arrays were no more than 8 shots. This made accuracy very important. (Shoot clean, and you don't have to burn a standing reload.)

What I observed at these Limited-8 matches was that there were a few kinds of shooters. You had the casual shooters...they just wanted to come out and shoot their guns. Then you had the casual competitors and also some that liked to hose...they clamoured for more than an 8 round limit. And, then there was the group of competitors that loved the challenge of shooting with 8 rounds on 8 round arrays.

[ChuckS]

SS Saturday 22 Apr06 @ Norco

Total 92 (!) shooters

Open: 31

Limited: 23

L-10: 19

Prod: 18

Revo: 0

SS: 1

11 of the productions shooters were U with no USPSA number

7 of the L-10 shooters were U with no USPSA number

Not a real strong showing...

[Matthew_Mink]

I shot SingleStack for the first time at the Old Fort Classic (local state level match) this past weekend. I had the most fun I've had shooting in about 2 years. There wasn't a big turnout, but this wasn't a real big match either. But, out of the 4 SingleStack shooters, we had 1 GM, and 2 M's. If you look at it from a talent standpoint, none of the other divisions had that many M/GM shooters.

I think (and hope) it will live. I like the new Provisional Division.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Matthew Mink

[sbmd]

I did not know a provisional division in its diaper stage would create so much discussion, way cool count me in....

JFD, remember the days when a shooter bought a 45 acp and then piece by piece replace everything with an add on such as an ambi safety, new sights, abeavertail and everyone thought it was great, or the 45 acp comp gun complete with a state of the art Clark Pin Master...ah then maybe not. Those were the good ole days and yes there are some of us still shooting this sport that remembers them. How the industry has changed, or did we change the industry? That is not what I believe this division was developed for to begin with. Many of those members have transfered over to IPDA, fine, their choice, as gun owners...should not critisize other shooting disciplines as long as they are shooting, support them.

I for one say keep Limited 10...not because I shoot it but for the below reasons:

1. Limited 10 was created due to the Clinton era crime bill that did nothing to reduce crime, only created higher replacement parts for my preban magazines. Keep in mind some states still have over 15 round restrictions on any magazine, not just rifles. Thus those members who live in those states are now restricted and will have a firearm that they would either have to break the law or compete in Limited without higher capacity magazine. That would be the same as saying a limited shooter must compete in Open, seem fair? I think not.

2. As for someone who made fun of my best friend for shooting Limited 10, I can say he tested my manhood challenging me say that real men shoot Limited 10...not backing down from a challenge, I accepted. After my first match of missing everthing except the back stop, I realized you do not have rounds to waste. Thus I was hooked no becoming better. I have shot limited 10 now since the beginning of 2004. I can honestly say my accuracy has improved and I look at stages different to say the least, but I look at stages 2 ways, 1 as limited and 1 as limited 10. I may find something different that might save me a little time here or there. I recommend to all my IPSC students if they are limited shooters to shoot limited 10 for a solid year, their shooting will improve, you have no room for error. Of course our sport is about making the fewest mistatkes.

3. RELOADS!!! shooting limited 10, you become very proficient in reloads...who can say that better reloads will not help them!

4. I really like beating the limited guys on stages that I have to do an extra reload

5. We can share shooters for IDPA and Single Stack Society. Plus we could shoot their matches as well. I shot the SS Classic in 2001. It was one of the most fun matches I shot because of one reason...equipment neutral. It was about shootig ability and of course USPSA shooters ruled taking probably 25 out of the top 30 places.

6. Like Production, Joe Public can purchase a single stack pistol and join our membership ranks and not have to make an extra ordinary purchase to play. How many of you honestly can say that they see 10 round 45 mags hanging on the wall at their local gun shop. However, there are all kinds of 8 round mags there...see a pattern!

Now lets look at something, the single stack division is provisional. Lets give it a fair shake. Let the board evaluate it at the end of the three year period. If they vote to keep it or toss it, they will have statistical data to make the decision.

I was (key words) in support of replacing Limited 10 with Single Stack. However, I have since come to the conclusion that L10 should stay for many various reasons. I remember speaking to Mr Voight at the 2002 Factory Gun Nationals, I recall very clearly Mike making this statement. "We should not create another division, Limited 10 needs to stay the way it is, look at who supports our sport". The conversation ended there because I knew I was not getting anywhere. I believe he was refering to STI and SV, which is true they support ALL of us. Now I see in the last issue of Front Sight that Mr. Voight fully supports the provisional single stack division. I wonder now if Limited 10 really is in jeapordy?

Just my thoughts,

Larry

[LPatterson]

I think the division has a chance if we open our minds to the fact that it will become a new division not a replacement. There are States that will not let a shooter replace a damaged magazine and a new shooter can't even buy a used magazine if it is above a certain capacity. So that means we can't grow new limited or open shooters in those States but Limited 10 is still available to them. Think of Single Stack Division as Revolver with 2 more rounds, if people want to shoot it then why not. Revolver division still allows more than 6 round cyclinders, it imposes penalties for shooting more than 6 between reloads.

Our first local match of the year had 3 declared Single Stack shooters but since it was a Special Classifer match I shot it Limited 10 with SS equipment because I want to move up in class. With 38 total shooters, the break out was 3 Open, 5 Limited, 13 Limited 10, 9 Production, 5 Revolver & 3 SS. 2 of the Limited shooters actually shot Glocks and another shot a Para.

[richardschennberg]

If the idea is to have a division where the Single Stack 1911 is one of the best choices, but not the only gun, then why not Standard-10 with a 8-round limit for major power?

Perhaps we could waive the rule where the gun has to fit in the box WITH the magazine if you load only 8 rounds per mag for major or only 10 rounds for minor (after LAMR).

What I would prefer is:

- fewer categories

- making changes that might allow more equipment than now but with no competitive disadvantage to today's L-10, Standard, and Single-Stack shooters.

Richard

Schennberg.com

[Mistral404]

When I shot Norco, I used my SS and eight rounders but registgered as L10 because of the classifier.

Lately at my local club matches I do the same thing. Register L10 but shoot it as a single stack all because of the classifier. I see a lot more shooters using the single stack guns and rules in our local matches.

Gary is right it should be slow the first year. Things will improve over the course of time. Don't be premature in judging the success of this new division.

[Steve H]

I have not followed this thread very close and kind of glossed over the messages, but I can tell you this. As the match director of the Western States Single Stack Championship, these last 4 years, we have drawn just under 100 shooter each year. This year, when I changed the rules and scoring to USPSA, we has 158 shooters, and I am sure we will be at 200 next year.

From what I have be seeing in AZ, Single Stack will grow.

Steve

[SteveZ]

... This year, when I changed the rules and scoring to USPSA, we has 158 shooters, and I am sure we will be at 200 next year.

From what I have be seeing in AZ, Single Stack will grow.

Steve

Its hard to say Steve. Was the increase in shooters because of the change from the RL/BE scoring methods....or was it because of the TGO factor...or was it because it was new?

I'm certain that "single stack matches" are going to increase in popularity...but what seems to be missing is participation in the division....when other divisions are offered. Single stack matching present a bit of a "captive audience" view of the division.

I'll continue to shooting "single stack matches" where thats the dedicated focus of the match....but otherwise, its L10 for me.

[jasmap]

... This year, when I changed the rules and scoring to USPSA, we has 158 shooters, and I am sure we will be at 200 next year.

From what I have be seeing in AZ, Single Stack will grow.

Steve

Its hard to say Steve. Was the increase in shooters because of the change from the RL/BE scoring methods....or was it because of the TGO factor...or was it because it was new?

I'm certain that "single stack matches" are going to increase in popularity...but what seems to be missing is participation in the division....when other divisions are offered. Single stack matching present a bit of a "captive audience" view of the division.

I'll continue to shooting "single stack matches" where thats the dedicated focus of the match....but otherwise, its L10 for me.

I shoot with Steve H. at Rio Solado in Mesa and I can say for sure that Single Stack as of late has been stronger than L10. No, not as strong as Limited or Open but stronger than L10. I'm sure it changes from club to club but here in AZ it's doing pretty well.

[raz-0]

Honestly, with all the SS vs. limited 10, I'm pretty much getting out of limited 10, which I have been shooting for a couple of years exclusively. With a skinny gun. But it has a full length dust cover and no bushing. So it's not cool for SS.

Most guys shooting single stacks in l-10 locally wouldn't be as screwed as me, but most will have to at least score a new holster and 5 new mags to play in SS (they only have 7 or 10 rounders in general). At a conservative estimate, buying cheap gear, that's about $90 to change divisions. Myself, changing to SS would cost an absolute minimum of about $840. the cost of entry to a possible competitor shooting a skinny 1911 would be about $100 for magzines.

If the local USPSA crowd weren't great fun to shoot with, I'd probably just go shoot some other sport, as that's a lot of ammo and match fees. Instead I'm shifting back to production which resulted in me dropping about $70 on a bladetech DOH.

Of course all the BS was great for vendors. Before it became apparant SS wasn't a marketing ploy, but someone wanting to have a rules and division fight, I was planning about $400-500 worth of work on the gun with one of our local sponsors. Passed on that idea now though.

Also had about $1100 socked away towards a limited gun. But I don't feel like playing the gear game if politics makes it obsolete. So I stopped saving, and that turned into a compact gun for our local pocket-gun match. The money still went to a sponsor, but it was roughly half of what they would have seen otherwise.

Since the sunset of the AWB, there's been a contingent of folks who seem to want to rock the boat and change things up for no apprant reason, and seem to think it will be a grand idea to insult people along the way, or generally do it with a bad attitude. The whole SS vs. L-10 battle being fought long and loud by a bunch of open and limited shooters is attractive. Then there's the general attitude of "screw anyone in a state with magazine laws" to attract folks. Then there's seeing frontsight publish articles like the bubblegum IPSC article. Real friendly towards current shooters, and the taliban remark certainly says "welcome" to the theoretical crowd of IDPA shooters SS was supposed to attract. I must say the appology in the current issue was marginally less insulting (and that's from someone who isn't fond of IDPA). Then you have the current front sight where you have article writers making nasty comments about people hiding in l-10 in an article about a competition. That just says "good sportsmanship" and "polite crowd" all over it.

I honestly don't think SS will survive without new shooters. Anyone "hiding" in l-10 is going to go hide somewhere else or leave. Anyone who really liked l-10 likely will avoid it out of spite or because they don't have the gear. They too might just leave. The limited or open guys who say "I'd drag out my SS 1911 if only I had a division other than L-10" are full of it. You shoot your favorite gear because it's your favorite gear. Other than fishing for a pass at the prize table or money at a big match, I doubt we'll see most of them reach for their safe-queens. As for new shooters, after reading throguh the last couple of front sights, USPSA is looking like a bunch of bickering a-holes playing internal politics. Other than people looking for an extra chance at the prize table or a couple extra specialty matches each year, I think it will be an overall flop unless it actually does generate an influx of new shooters. Despite the lip-service stating that is SS's intent, the foot USPSA is putting forward seems to be headed directly towards the mouth in that respect.

Myself, I'm going to stop feeding the trolls, and go shoot production.

Edited April 26, 2006 by raz-0

[Merlin Orr]

Honestly, with all the SS vs. limited 10, I'm pretty much getting out of limited 10, which I have been shooting for a couple of years exclusively. With a skinny gun. But it has a full length dust cover and no bushing. So it's not cool for SS.

Most guys shooting single stacks in l-10 locally wouldn't be as screwed as me, but most will have to at least score a new holster and 5 new mags to play in SS (they only have 7 or 10 rounders in general). At a conservative estimate, buying cheap gear, that's about $90 to change divisions. Myself, changing to SS would cost an absolute minimum of about $840. the cost of entry to a possible competitor shooting a skinny 1911 would be about $100 for magzines.

If the local USPSA crowd weren't great fun to shoot with, I'd probably just go shoot some other sport, as that's a lot of ammo and match fees. Instead I'm shifting back to production which resulted in me dropping about $70 on a bladetech DOH.

Of course all the BS was great for vendors. Before it became apparant SS wasn't a marketing ploy, but someone wanting to have a rules and division fight, I was planning about $400-500 worth of work on the gun with one of our local sponsors. Passed on that idea now though.

Also had about $1100 socked away towards a limited gun. But I don't feel like playing the gear game if politics makes it obsolete. So I stopped saving, and that turned into a compact gun for our local pocket-gun match. The money still went to a sponsor, but it was roughly half of what they would have seen otherwise.

Since the sunset of the AWB, there's been a contingent of folks who seem to want to rock the boat and change things up for no apprant reason, and seem to think it will be a grand idea to insult people along the way, or generally do it with a bad attitude. The whole SS vs. L-10 battle being fought long and loud by a bunch of open and limited shooters is attractive. Then there's the general attitude of "screw anyone in a state with magazine laws" to attract folks. Then there's seeing frontsight publish articles like the bubblegum IPSC article. Real friendly towards current shooters, and the taliban remark certainly says "welcome" to the theoretical crowd of IDPA shooters SS was supposed to attract. I must say the appology in the current issue was marginally less insulting (and that's from someone who isn't fond of IDPA). Then you have the current front sight where you have article writers making nasty comments about people hiding in l-10 in an article about a competition. That just says "good sportsmanship" and "polite crowd" all over it.

I honestly don't think SS will survive without new shooters. Anyone "hiding" in l-10 is going to go hide somewhere else or leave. Anyone who really liked l-10 likely will avoid it out of spite or because they don't have the gear. They too might just leave. The limited or open guys who say "I'd drag out my SS 1911 if only I had a division other than L-10" are full of it. You shoot your favorite gear because it's your favorite gear. Other than fishing for a pass at the prize table or money at a big match, I doubt we'll see most of them reach for their safe-queens. As for new shooters, after reading throguh the last couple of front sights, USPSA is looking like a bunch of bickering a-holes playing internal politics. Other than people looking for an extra chance at the prize table or a couple extra specialty matches each year, I think it will be an overall flop unless it actually does generate an influx of new shooters. Despite the lip-service stating that is SS's intent, the foot USPSA is putting forward seems to be headed directly towards the mouth in that respect.

Myself, I'm going to stop feeding the trolls, and go shoot production.

(Edited before posting.)

[Stony Lane]

In Limited 10 I like to shoot a Beretta 96 Steel. It is a single action, .40 S&W, but only holds a maximum of 11 (or 12) +1. I can't shoot in Single Stack and if Limited 10 is phased out I'll have no place to go. There are quite a few other guns (and shooters) in this situation. Do not forget us.

[Mistral404]

Well, I agree with both Steves. I enjoy the heck out of it. The WSSSC was awesome. I have shot many of Tuesday Night Steel with my single stack as many others have in the L10 Division.

It would be nice if we could have SS and L10 for a while without someone calling for the demise of one of them.

[MarkS_A18138]

WOW! I wish I had this much passion about SS vs. L10! I just shoot! I don't care! I am trying the new divsion out! SS is just plain fun to shoot!

Also a quick note: Don't think it's going to easy in SS. Most of the big matches are only giving overall win and not class win.

Edited April 28, 2006 by MarkS_A18138