Major Matches With No Open Div & No Open Shooters At Major Matches

[Still Praying]

I hate the fact that there are major matches with out an Open division. This only tells me that they just don't want us there, and for some reason they have a problem with us or our guns. Gun control? In what way do we bother the Limited or Tactical shooters to the point that they don't want us there? We're not competing against the Limited shooters, so I know it can't be that we're beating their times or something like that. Some of the Limited shooters act like we're unsafe or to radical for them to shoot on the same squad with. I've heard Limited shooters say (in reference to an Open shooters DQ) "Oh, he's an Open shooter." as if to say, what do you expect their so radical or unsafe. There is some stereotyping and discrimination going on and I for one don't like it.

Open is pretty much all I shoot. The Open guns just fit me (Although my scores may not show it). I like to shoot Limited a little, but I have to make myself do it. I feel I can shoot my Limited gun almost as good as my Open gun, or I could, if I shot it more. The few times I've shot other divisions, I found myself wishing I had shot Open. 3-Gun is the same way for me. Open all the way.

As for no Open shooters at major matches. This is especially true at 3-Gun matches. They just don't show up or they shoot Limited because the pirze table is bigger. This can be a good thing, because I won Over all, Open, Area 6 3-Gun Champion this past year. And wouldn't you know it, a Limited shooter brought it to my attention that the only reason I won was that there weren't many Open shooter there. Give me a break. I know that played a huge part in it, but where are the Open shooters?

I'm not trying to start anything here, I just want to hear some of your replies on this matter. I've talked to other Open shooters that feel the same way and would like to know too.

BTW, I'm still proud of my Over All, Open, Area 6 3-Gun win. Even though, It's the only way I could have won Over All, Area 6 anything. So if you Open shooters don't show up this year, I might get lucky again. Speeking of getting lucky, I'm going to bed. No competition there either, and no I don't want any. I don't want to loose that one.

Ronnie

[Precision40]

I may be reading this post wrong, but nearly every major match I go to, Open and Limited are the 2 dominate divisions with a nearly equal ratio of Open to Ltd. Just a quick look at the 2005 area matches, I came up with 674 Ltd to 640 Open shooters.

As far as folks talking bad about open shooters, I've never ran into that, at least around here.

[Clay1]

If you are talking about the Nationals, the reason they have the divisions seperated is so those so inclined can shoot both divisions on different dates. If they were all together you would have to pick just one.

[latewatch]

I think he's referring to the NTPS Tri-Gun Match.

Some Non-USPSA 3 Gun Matches recognize Open and some don't. That's just the way it is. Why knock a group that is willing to do the work and put on a good match just because of your preferences for shooting a certain type of gun. There are plenty of games for everyone to play.

BTW, in case your wondering, I shot Open 3 Gun most of last year.

Just my .02

[Bear1142]

Still Praying,

And wouldn't you know it, a Limited shooter brought it to my attention that the only reason I won was that there weren't many Open shooter there.

It doesn't matter who showed up. You did. You have no control over who comes to a match. They didn't give you the title because you were a nice guy. You earned it competing in a tough match. I happen to know there were some other talented Open shooters at the A6 3-Gun and you beat them. Congratulations on your win.

Erik

Edited January 13, 2006 by Bear1142

[ChuckS]

--- snip --- I won Over all, Open, Area 6 3-Gun Champion this past year. And wouldn't you know it, a Limited shooter brought it to my attention that the only reason I won was that there weren't many Open shooter there. --- snip ---

Ronnie

How well did that limited shooter place??? I bet he wasn't HOAL!

[cpty1]

Still Praying,

FWIW, I'll be joining you and the rest of that "Alabama Gang" in open 3 gun this year. Been building the rifle and shotgun over the winter and have everything about ready to go. May not be many of us, but there'll be one more in the group. Kind of a bummer that the first chance I thought I had to break out the new toys, don't look like a chance after all.

[short_round]

And wouldn't you know it, a Limited shooter brought it to my attention that the only reason I won was that there weren't many Open shooter there.

It doesn't matter who showed up. You did.

D@MN STRAIGHT!

If that guy wasn't joking he's a d!ck. The good news is that he'll hurt himself more than anyone else with that kind of attitude.

Congratulations on your win.

CONGRATULATIONS!

[Ted Murphy]

I talked to an MD who stopped reconizing Open from his Non USPSA 3 gun match cause the staff got in a fight with some Open class shooter and figured that by dropping Open he would not have to see the guy again.

Kinda punishes the 99.99% of the Open shooters who are fun guys but that was the solution the guy came up with.

Only thing I said about that is whoever that guy was, he sure can make someone mad.

Ted

[Still Praying]

Why knock a group that is willing to do the work and put on a good match just because of your preferences for shooting a certain type of gun.

Know one is knocking anyone for anything. I was just trying to find out what's up with no Open division on some of these matches.

It doesn't matter who showed up. You did. You have no control over who comes to a match. They didn't give you the title because you were a nice guy. You earned it competing in a tough match. I happen to know there were some other talented Open shooters at the A6 3-Gun and you beat them. Congratulations on your win.

Thanks Erik

I am proud of it, because it wasn't that long ago, I wouldn't have had a snowballs chance at something like that. Plus it was my first 3-Gun over all win, thanks to Henry Avant at Saw Custom (New upper).

How well did that limited shooter place??? I bet he wasn't HOAL!

I'm not sure and not sure if he was Limited or Tactical.

FWIW, I'll be joining you and the rest of that "Alabama Gang" in open 3 gun this year. Been building the rifle and shotgun over the winter and have everything about ready to go. May not be many of us, but there'll be one more in the group. Kind of a bummer that the first chance I thought I had to break out the new toys, don't look like a chance after all.

Welcome aboard Chris. Get the bugs worked out of those guns because Tenn is going to have an Open divison afterall. They posted it today.

Thanks Short round, whoever you are.

I talked to an MD who stopped reconizing Open from his Non USPSA 3 gun match cause the staff got in a fight with some Open class shooter and figured that by dropping Open he would not have to see the guy again.

Kinda punishes the 99.99% of the Open shooters who are fun guys but that was the solution the guy came up with.

That's messed up. That shows how one persons actions can screw everything up for everybody. I think I would have just invited him to not come back.

Thanks for you replies guys. I would still like to know, why some of these Open shooters don't show up for the matches. Most of the time all I see are A's and lower, no GM's or M's. I've been trying to talk Max into shooting 3-Gun. He said he might.???? Maybe some day. I love to play the game and love to see it played. Even if your beating me. So if you GM's and M's are afraid of hurting my feelings by beating me, don't worry about it. I just want to watch it.

Ronnie

[latewatch]

This only tells me that they just don't want us there, and for some reason they have a problem with us or our guns. Gun control? In what way do we bother the Limited or Tactical shooters to the point that they don't want us there? We're not competing against the Limited shooters, so I know it can't be that we're beating their times or something like that. Some of the Limited shooters act like we're unsafe or to radical for them to shoot on the same squad with.

Sounds like a Knock to me!!!!

[Wakal]

I hate that some folks do everything they can to quash technological innovation. Open is the bleeding edge of technology, and some folks...can't hang with new ideas.

As a match director, I know that competitors are going to approach my stages differently depending on their equipment (and to a lesser degree, their skill level). Having to hand-feed a scattergun makes a huge difference (although watching Benny "I'm Da Man" Hill single-loading his shotgun in the 2005 Cav Arms 30-round shotgun stage would disabuse me of that notion if I didn't know for a fact that he was waxed by a dufus with a 20-round drum-fed one-off prototype shotgun; also viewable on the same DVD) over zip-tubes or magazines.

I don't think there is a spit's worth of difference between a Open and a Tactical rifle. The larger magazine capacity and the dot on a Open pistol makes a little difference, but the huge switch is reloading Open vs. Limited/Tactical shotguns.

Some less open-minded match directors are offended (!) when a guy shows up with a 14-round tube or 20-round drum on their shotgun as it makes a "travesty" of the course of fire. Me...I think we should all shoot and have fun. Spend less time worrying about a guy in another division and more about your own performance within your own division

I love shooting Open 3-Gun, and would hate to give that up!

Alex

[JFD]

Sounds like a knock to me as well.

Of course this is coming from someone having a problem with a particular match, yet immediately launches a tirade against non Open shooters...

If you have a problem with the match management, then take it up with them.

[hopalong]

Ronnie,

You must remember.................

OPEN guns are EXPENSIVE............

Not all open shooters can afford all the expensive gear, and then buy 3-gun gear to go along with it like you rich dudes can!!!

Now on Ronnies Behalf, even though he is from Georgia .

He is like me with my Revolver, wants more competetion, company in his particular division that is all......and is trying to drum up some, sometimes that requires stepping on a toe every now and then. (amongst those who shoot in that particular division).

I know it sounded like it but Ronnie doesn't have a beef with the guys up there, he was only asking, looking for info.......YOU have to remember he is from Georgia!!!

And I have nothing against Georgia folks, the women are pretty and Real southern Ladies, but the guys(like Ronnie) are just a little off.......if you know what I mean

Hopalong

[Flexmoney]

Hop...as I read...I thought you were one step away from calling him a "peach".

[Still Praying]

Thanks Hoppy (I think?) I knew you would understand.

Rich guys? If I was rich, I wouldn't be bitching about the Multi Gun Nationals being on the other side of the earth. I would just jump in my plane and fly, and if some of these guys can aford to shoot all over the US then they can aford the same toys. They just don't want to shoot Open and thats ok too.

A couple of speed loaders for the shoty don't cost that much.

BTW, I'm still keeping an eye open for a good wheel gun set up.(CHEEP) I'm not rich you know.

We're going to have to talk about this Georgia stuff in Alabama. Neutral ground you know.

latewatch

Maybe you need to read it again or maybe I didn't say it right. Who knows. I was not knocking on anyone. I was just trying to find out why some matches don't have an Open division/class and fixing the problem so I can play too. Cool down, drink another one and read it again. We are all adults here and we can work it out, TOGETHER.

Hey Flex

I'm not anybodys "peach", but "I'll be your Huckleberry".

Hey Wakal

Greatly put. You Da Man.

Ronnie

Edited January 15, 2006 by Still Praying

[Singlestack]

Now wait just a dad-burn cotton-pickin minute now.

I live in Ga too. If you need any help with them Yankee's from up thar in Tenn. Ronnie, you just let me know.

[kellyn]

How about someone put on an Open class-only 3 gun match?

[Still Praying]

Now that wouldn't be right.

I think all shooters need to be able to shoot all matches, with whatever they want to shoot. If you want to shoot a wheel gun, pump shoty and a bolt action, it's your choice. Now that would be a challenging divion or class.

Ronnie

[kurtm]

FWIW area 6 3-gun was won high overall, combined, everyone thrown together....etc... by a limited shooter, but I saw some of the BEST open 3-gunners in the nation shoot that match and Ronnie did a great job!!

I don't know why open is a small class, but in the same breath I would ask why limited is such a small class also, then pass out because that is a lot to say with one breath. As Alex pointed out OPEN is where the tech advances are made. RM3G has ALWAYS held that as a tenent of the match and has and always will have an open division, but not many shooters choose to shoot in it....I don't know why, but there it is. Maybe it is a hold over perception from pistol shooting where the open guys are really hot, and people figure it may be easier in limited/tactical. In 3-gun this just isn't the case, but the perception may be there. If it were gear cost, limited should be the biggest class but it hurts for shooters the way open does. Any answers?? No?? well lets go shoot and Ronnie you keep on plugging in open, your my hero!! KURT

[rhgunguy]

The reason I don't shoot open is CA$H! I don't hate the guys that shoot open, some day I will have that kind of money. The reason that some people have a disdain for open guns/shooters is jelousy. Do I covet my neighbors S_I? Heck yes! Do I scoff at him? Heck no, the guys that shoot open at my club are the ROs! I don't want to annoy them.

[Still Praying]

I wonder who that Limited shooter was?????????? OH, KURT MILLER IS D MAN. SHOW OFF Great job Kurt and thanks.

If I'm not mistaken the only difference between Limited and Tactical is the optics on the rifle and most shooters don't want to shoot iron sights on them because of the long shots.

As for Open division. If you are an Open shooter already, you have an Open pistol and the rifle is pretty much the same as Tactical, the only thing left is the shot gun. I wonder if the speed loaders for the shoot gun is a part of the problem. Now I understand that as long as we have shooters like Roger Cash (Kangaroo) around, running an Open shot gun like he does. We don't have much of a chance there, but we can try to get better and after all he is getting ooooolder and he can slip up once in a while. Plus we can try to make up the shot gun points with the rifle and pistol.

The reason that some people have a disdain for open guns/shooters is jelousy.

I have heard that before and that may be a problem with a small amount of shooters. I wasn't jealous of the Open shooters when I shot Lim/10. In fact I was looking for a good Limited gun when I got talked into buying the Open gun that I'm shooting now and glad of it. Maybe this is a bigger problem than I think. Come to think of it I have heard this quite a few times now from both Open and Limited shooters. I'm not a jealous kind of person, so I don't understand that kind of thinking.

Thanks for your input. Maybe it will help me understand some of what's going on.

Ronnie

Edited January 26, 2006 by Still Praying

[Shooter Grrl]

As for Open division. If you are an Open shooter already, you have an Open pistol and the rifle is pretty much the same as Tactical, the only thing left is the shot gun. I wonder if the speed loaders for the shoot gun is a part of the problem.

YES IT IS THE SPEEDLOADERS! All things being equal, without 'em, just shoot in Tactical. I believe *I* and other mere mortals not named Kurt cannot compete in Open without 'em!

[kellyn]

I for one could care less about comparing open class scores to limited scores to tactical scores.

I also support open class as it is the testing ground for new ideas, techniques etc. Plus it's fun. I've been there, I know.

I agree that some are jealous/disdainful of the open class. Why I don't know.

This is not meant as a retort but having an open class does limit a match director to what he can do in stage design. The TriLamb (North Am. Tac 3 Gun) will likely never have an open class and if it did most everyone in open would end up being DQ'd. I just don't see how the vast majority of open class holsters could survive that match while retaining the pistol. Plus the pistols would get very beat up. Shooters would then whine. Kyle and his merry band of RO's would then kill-hurt-maim them. Not a pretty sight.

[cpty1]

Why doesn't someone make a holster for an open gun that will retain the weapon in a manner sufficient for 3 gun tactical matches? I have a BladeTech for a 6" SV on order and am hoping a bit of heat gun and dremel tool work will result in a holster that will fit and secure my commander length open gun. I pulled a CR Speed out of stock and played around with it, but I didn't get a good feeling at all about the security of the gun.