Require Painting in Tier 1 Matches?

[Haywizzle]

If a match didn't allow any paint, I would probably say something to the person in charge. If they still didn't allow it, I wouldn't go back. Like some of you have stated, I'm even willing to paint my own. Most clubs I've been to paint after each shooter unless that shooter doesn't want it. The only exception is freezing temps, but bad paint is still better than no paint in my humble opinion.

[zzt]

I don't buy the price argument against painting.  Steel Target paint has gone up in price, but $65 per case/12 is not exorbitant.  We go through an average of 3 cans per stage for a 70 gun shoot.  The club I shoot most often at charges $20 for the first gun and $10 for the second.  They have enough money to buy new targets, make new bays, improve the grounds, host the State match and still have enough left over to award $3000 in cash prizes at the end of the season.

 

BTW, if you shake it well, Steel Target paint works when it is 22 deg.

[Thomas H]

21 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Folks have been getting together and having fun at outlaw steel matches for quite a few years, it is not like SCSA invented steel matches at most clubs or that the clubs need SCSA to continue. There is room for those who think of SCSA as a real sport and more power to them, but I don't know of a reason why the "fun"shooters can't also be reasonably accommodated and I tend to think the outlaw matches might be a lot more important in the big picture. There is a lot to be said for a low key competitive ish match that gives the kids a good introduction to shooting in a controlled environment and allows the casual shooters a bit of practice and a bit of socialization. 

 

I'm having difficulty with the concept that "painting once before each shooter" somehow means that "fun shooters aren't being accommodated."  Those two things have pretty much nothing to do with each other.

 

There is no logically supported reason to not paint.  Money isn't the problem (as people have shown), time isn't the problem (as people have shown), and it doesn't hurt the "fun" shooters who want to socialize in the slightest if they socialize while walking out to paint. 

 

Literally, the only thing that not painting does, is make it not a Steel Challenge match with scores that can't possibly be justified because you can't verify them.

 

There IS a lot to be said for a low key competitive match for kids.  Anyone who works with kids knows that friendly competition and scores where they can see their improvement are INCREDIBLE motivators for kids.  Know what makes that happen?  Following the rules every time so that their scores are actually a meaningful measurement of their improvement,where those scores are measured and called correctly, which requires painting.

 

Want to get kids excited?  Let them participate in the actual sport, seeing their actual scores as opposed to "eh, we'll give it to you" or "I'm gonna call that a miss" or the worst ever "we don't call misses" rulesets.

 

Just like kids know that participation trophies don't matter and aren't worth anything, finding out that what they are doing isn't actually the REAL sport and their scores aren't actually a measure of their skill---that's going to be a strong negative.

[Farmer]

56 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

I'm having difficulty with the concept that "painting once before each shooter" somehow means that "fun shooters aren't being accommodated."  Those two things have pretty much nothing to do with each other.

 

There is no logically supported reason to not paint.  Money isn't the problem (as people have shown), time isn't the problem (as people have shown), and it doesn't hurt the "fun" shooters who want to socialize in the slightest if they socialize while walking out to paint. 

 

Literally, the only thing that not painting does, is make it not a Steel Challenge match with scores that can't possibly be justified because you can't verify them.

 

There IS a lot to be said for a low key competitive match for kids.  Anyone who works with kids knows that friendly competition and scores where they can see their improvement are INCREDIBLE motivators for kids.  Know what makes that happen?  Following the rules every time so that their scores are actually a meaningful measurement of their improvement,where those scores are measured and called correctly, which requires painting.

 

Want to get kids excited?  Let them participate in the actual sport, seeing their actual scores as opposed to "eh, we'll give it to you" or "I'm gonna call that a miss" or the worst ever "we don't call misses" rulesets.

 

Just like kids know that participation trophies don't matter and aren't worth anything, finding out that what they are doing isn't actually the REAL sport and their scores aren't actually a measure of their skill---that's going to be a strong negative.

Also helps teach responsibility and honesty. Two things that are lacking nowadays. If you cheat a kid they’ll remember that forever. 

Edited April 22 by Farmer

[Squirrel45]

41 minutes ago, Farmer said:

Also helps teach responsibility and honesty. Two things that are lacking nowadays. If you cheat a kid they’ll remember that forever. 

You got that right 

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

I'm having difficulty with the concept that "painting once before each shooter" somehow means that "fun shooters aren't being accommodated."  Those two things have pretty much nothing to do with each other. ***** If you are forcing people to do something (painting) or not do something (not painting) then you are not accommodating some of them. I agree that reasonable people can work things out. Usually it is as simple as asking if they want targets painted *******

 

There is no logically supported reason to not paint.  Money isn't the problem (as people have shown), time isn't the problem (as people have shown), and it doesn't hurt the "fun" shooters who want to socialize in the slightest if they socialize while walking out to paint. 

****** it does take money and it does take time and it does take somebody to purchase and store and inventory the paint, to many their is no logically supported reason to paint****

Literally, the only thing that not painting does, is make it not a Steel Challenge match with scores that can't possibly be justified because you can't verify them.*****Steel matches existed long before people started calling them steel challenge, I have never once seen people have any difficulty knowing how well they shot a steel match or practice session. Every sport involves some possibility for error in scoring, if you are getting upset about a possible paint scrape on an edge once in a blue moon then I think you have sort of lost the beauty of the match. Majors are a different thing but many locals exist primarily as a form of fun and relaxation among friends. 

 

 

[bigtimelarry]

I like mine painted. I don't care if they get pissed or not. If everybody on my squad doesn't want paint, then I'll shoot first while they are freshly painted or I'll paint them myself.  The time I spend prepping ammo, working on my guns, dry firing, getting up early driving to and from the match along with the money it cost's me, the most important part is my shooting. Why not have it painted. Geez, it only takes like 45 seconds.  

[eisenhow]

From NROI today:  Failure (to paint) Is Not An Option

[IHAVEGAS]

5 hours ago, eisenhow said:

From NROI today:  Failure (to paint) Is Not An Option

Abandoning USPSA affiliation is. Not sure if giving up on the organization is just a local thing or if it is a bit more widespread. 

[bigdawgbeav]

On 4/25/2024 at 9:43 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

Abandoning USPSA affiliation is. Not sure if giving up on the organization is just a local thing or if it is a bit more widespread. 

What does that have to do with painting between competitors?  

[shred]

Around here one of a few things will happen, my prediction of from most-likely to least.

 

Clubs that are already non-painting for whatever reason will ignore that like they do most anything else inconvenient coming from USPSA HQ and will continue as-is until someone bitches.  Then they'll--

 

1- tell the shooters they need to paint between shooters, but ignore if it actually happens or not.

 

2- disassociate from USPSA and continue doing whatever it was they were doing

 

3- mandate and enforce painting between shooters.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

19 hours ago, bigdawgbeav said:

What does that have to do with painting between competitors?  

 

They say that sometimes adding another straw can break a camel's back. It is one more mandate from an organization that has fallen out of favor (locally, I don't know about the big picture). I have never been to a match where painting or not was an issue (mountains on the internet tend to be molehills in real life) but if it was and someone pushed the 'but USPSA rules say' at a local, things may not go as intended. 

 

I think Shred nailed it in his post above. 

[Thomas H]

IHAVEGAAS wrote:

***** If you are forcing people to do something (painting) or not do something (not painting) then you are not accommodating some of them. I agree that reasonable people can work things out. Usually it is as simple as asking if they want targets painted *******

 

Wow.  So...making people actually hit the targets and not miss would also be 'not accommodating some of them'? 

 

That really needs no actual response, other than "painting is required in the sport of Steel Challenge."

 

****** it does take money and it does take time and it does take somebody to purchase and store and inventory the paint, to many their is no logically supported reason to paint****

 

If you are going to ignore how people have pointed out that the cost of paint is extremely minor and can be handled by increasing the cost by a dollar, and if you are already purchasing 2x4s for the posts and storing your steel you already have "somebody to purchase and store and inventory the paint" ---then sure, it takes money and time.

 

No logically supported reason to paint?  Because making correct hit/miss calls isn't important?  Actually officiating the sport correctly to do right by your shooters isn't important.

 

Well, ok, some people do think that way. 

 

*****Steel matches existed long before people started calling them steel challenge, I have never once seen people have any difficulty knowing how well they shot a steel match or practice session. *****

Really?  Because I've seen plenty of people at locals, level IIs, and level IIIs all have misses and not know it.  Heck, you can easily find videos of people crowing about their incredible skills, and missing the fact that video itself actually shows that they didn't hit some of the plates.

 

Perhaps you haven't seen many people shoot Steel Challenge?  Or....maybe YOU also missed that people did not hit plates, and didn't call misses when you should have---but didn't know it because the plates weren't painted?

 

Literally every SC shooter I know has, in a match, at some point in time gotten a mike called on them when they thought they had hit the plate.

 

****Every sport involves some possibility for error in scoring, if you are getting upset about a possible paint scrape on an edge once in a blue moon then I think you have sort of lost the beauty of the match. ****

 

The literal point of painting is to reduce that error in scoring.  And if you think misses only occur "once in a blue moon" then...I REALLY think you need to paint more.

 

*****Majors are a different thing but many locals exist primarily as a form of fun and relaxation among friends.****

 

Yep.  Which doesn't have anything to do with painting, but does have a lot to do with scoring properly.  Which normally, friends want to do.

 

[bigdawgbeav]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

They say that sometimes adding another straw can break a camel's back. It is one more mandate from an organization that has fallen out of favor (locally, I don't know about the big picture). I have never been to a match where painting or not was an issue (mountains on the internet tend to be molehills in real life) but if it was and someone pushed the 'but USPSA rules say' at a local, things may not go as intended. 

 

I think Shred nailed it in his post above. 

 

I don't consider painting after every shooter as a "mandate" from the org.  It's a rule, it's been part of the rules for as long as I can remember and I'm fairly certain it was a rule before USPSA got involved.  

 

I understand that there is a certain minority faction that are unhappy with the decisions/directives of USPSA as of late.  Personally I stay out of it as, for the most part, it revolves around USPSA competitions.  We are fortunate that as SC shooters we have excellent board representation with Zack keeping an eye out for us.

Edited Tuesday at 03:12 PM by bigdawgbeav

[Thomas H]

1 minute ago, bigdawgbeav said:

 

I don't consider painting after every shooter as a "mandate".  It's a rule, it's been part of the rules for as long as I can remember and I'm fairly certain it was a rule before USPSA got involved. 

 

Hasn't painting been literally a part of the sport from the beginning in Piru?  I thought it had, but I may be incorrect.

[shred]

17 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Hasn't painting been literally a part of the sport from the beginning in Piru?  I thought it had, but I may be incorrect.

At the big match, sure.  At locals?  Not so much.

 

I started shooting local steel matches on the same plates Chip McCormick used to practice for his wins in 1986 and 1988...  Seen a lot of local steel matches in the intervening 30+ years and went to the big match many times.  There wasn't even a rulebook or any way for local clubs to affiliate with SC for a lot of that time, so painting at locals was and still is mostly "eh, ... if you want" and often only for the .22s in the squad.  Centerfire shooters and ROs rarely have difficulty scoring hits.

 

 

[warpspeed]

For our local Tier 1 match, we usually ask the shooter if they want it painted.  If the previous shooter(s) were both CF, then it usually gets done. If they were RF, then the plates are not too bad and they just shoot.

 

But it's always up to the shooter. We paint if they say  yes

[RickT]

I'm simply not going to RO (anymore) until we start painting.  With 80%+ of the guns being rimfire it can be almost impossible to hear hits on plates depending on the target size/distance and the size of the bay.  I'm tire of "benefit of the doubt".  Our squads are typically 10-11 guns, but only 5-6 shooters max so RO's can be at a bit of a premium.

[Squirrel45]

No paint= non scationed. Period. 

You wouldn't have a uspsa, icore or idpa match without tapeing. It's part of being a scationed disapline. If a club wants to run rouge/outlaw/clubby etc steel matches that's fine, but not call them steel challenge. 

 

For the group that view this as a social activity that's great, you can talk and paint at the same. Just think of the steps your getting in.

 

In the end we all want this to fun but fair, keep that in mind. Being lazy or frugal shouldn't be used a scapegoat. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Squirrel45 said:

You wouldn't have a uspsa, icore or idpa match without tapeing.

 

You do have most of them without painting though, I think it is actually more important in those matches because with a hit plate that fails to fall there is no potential for a make up unless the failure is caught and with a low hit on a popper it avoids the 'I had to shoot it 3 times or but we all heard it hit' disappointment that sometimes happens as well as makes it obvious to the s.o./r.o. that there is a flaky target.  I don't know the icore local match/level 1 rules but USPSA and IDPA both seem to recognize that level 1 match painting is something that clubs may prefer not to do. 

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

IHAVEGAAS wrote:

***** If you are forcing people to do something (painting) or not do something (not painting) then you are not accommodating some of them. I agree that reasonable people can work things out. Usually it is as simple as asking if they want targets painted *******

 

Wow.  So...making people actually hit the targets and not miss would also be 'not accommodating some of them'? 

It is just the English language, when two groups want something different & in conflict you can only accommodate one of them. 

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

 

 

****** it does take money and it does take time and it does take somebody to purchase and store and inventory the paint, to many their is no logically supported reason to paint****

 

If you are going to ignore how people have pointed out that the cost of paint is extremely minor and can be handled by increasing the cost by a dollar, and if you are already purchasing 2x4s for the posts and storing your steel you already have "somebody to purchase and store and inventory the paint" ---then sure, it takes money and time.

 

No logically supported reason to paint?  Because making correct hit/miss calls isn't important?  Actually officiating the sport correctly to do right by your shooters isn't important.

 

USPSA & IDPA don't require painting the steels at level 1 matches. I think that involves a recognition that not everyone wants to mess with it. 

 

The worry over correct hit calls is interesting. I assume that if there was a high level of concern/problem then you would have to paint every target after every string so that doubles could be called correctly by looking after the hit. Most would probably agree that painting 4 times for every shooter and 1 time in between was not worthwhile. 

 

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

*****Steel matches existed long before people started calling them steel challenge, I have never once seen people have any difficulty knowing how well they shot a steel match or practice session. *****
Really?  Because I've seen plenty of people at locals, level IIs, and level IIIs all have misses and not know it.  Heck, you can easily find videos of people crowing about their incredible skills, and missing the fact that video itself actually shows that they didn't hit some of the plates.

 

Could you share one of these easily found videos?

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

****Every sport involves some possibility for error in scoring, if you are getting upset about a possible paint scrape on an edge once in a blue moon then I think you have sort of lost the beauty of the match. ****

 

The literal point of painting is to reduce that error in scoring.  And if you think misses only occur "once in a blue moon" then...I REALLY think you need to paint more.

Apples and oranges. 

 

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

 

[Hoops]

References to IDPA and USPSA matches are not relevant to this discussion.  What happens at IDPA and USPSA matches....and Outlaw matches...are of no consequence to Steel Challenge and to this discussion.  

 

Per the Steel Challenge rules, painting is required.  Every shooter who signs up for a Steel Challenge match should expect painting.  If a shooter does not want painting, they can make that clear to the squad and targets will not be painted.  However, in the case non-painted targets, there is no guessing.....if a hit is not clear and obvious to the RO and scorer (the only two people who make the calls), it will be recorded as a miss.   No way and edge shot can be verified.

 

So the answer to all this back and forth is simple.....if a shooter doesnt want paint and accepts the risks of scoring on shot-up targets.....fine.....the risk is to the shooter.  

 

 

[Squirrel45]

The relevance is that many people believe that SC is a "lower" or "introductory" disapline. People would not be making this a discussion if they did not have this mindset. fyi when shooting at tier 2 or 3 match if there is a mark on the plate it counts as a hit. Iv been with shooters who clearly did not hit the target, yet when walking out they will point to a edge hit on the bottom. The competitor is given the hit. I don't see the difference between a tier 1 or 3 it's paint. Just do it geeze 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

Per the Steel Challenge rules, painting is required.  Every shooter who signs up for a Steel Challenge match should expect painting.  If a shooter does not want painting, they can make that clear to the squad and targets will not be painted. 

 

So it is like the Pirates code then? If you are going to be absolute about the rules I think you would be required to paint whether the shooter wanted it or not. 

[shred]

Clubs shot "Steel Challenge" matches a long time before USPSA ever thought of buying it.  They have no trademark on the words as the trademark application-- including the old logo (nobody thinks it's worth trying to get just the words) is dead and abandoned.

 

https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=77540442&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch

 

Clubs are legally free to call their matches "Steel Challenge" whenever they want with whatever rules they want, they just can't call them SCSA or USPSA matches...