Require Painting in Tier 1 Matches?

[Thomas H]

On 4/30/2024 at 1:50 PM, IHAVEGAS said:

1) It is just the English language, when two groups want something different & in conflict you can only accommodate one of them. 

 

2) USPSA & IDPA don't require painting the steels at level 1 matches. I think that involves a recognition that not everyone wants to mess with it. 

 

3) The worry over correct hit calls is interesting. I assume that if there was a high level of concern/problem then you would have to paint every target after every string so that doubles could be called correctly by looking after the hit. Most would probably agree that painting 4 times for every shooter and 1 time in between was not worthwhile. 

 

4) Could you share one of these easily found videos?

 

5) Apples and oranges. 

 

 

 

I added the numbering above because when quoting everything just jumbled together, and I wanted to try to be clear about what I was responding to.

 

1) So again, if the rules require something and people don't want to do it, you are therefore not accommodating them?  Or is that term (and that entire set of reasoning) something that isn't actually applicable to this situation?  I mean, literally, if some people don't want misses called on them because it embarrasses them, but they get called anyway, that is "not accommodating them" and yet, that literally doesn't matter.

 

2) What USPSA and IDPA do is non-relevant.  Though literally the fact that in those sports, the steel FALLS when hit probably has something to do with it.  But again, not actually relevant.

 

3) Painting after every string is unnecessary, since ROs can quite easily count hits for one competitor.  When you have have 20, that doesn't work anymore.  That argument doesn't work.

 

4) I could, yes.  I'll note that you ignored the part about how everyone has (if they have been shooting SC awhile) had a miss called on them when they thought they had hit it, though.

 

5)  The literally point is to reduce error in score calls is---apples and oranges? Nope, that's not how that works.

 

I really go wonder what the big problem is with painting.  It isn't hard, and people can socialize perfectly well.  Are folks that scared about getting accurate scores called?  That seems unlikely, but....people are weird.  Is it that people don't want to walk?  Think of it as helping get your exercise in for the day---you'll live longer!

 

What is the actual reason people are so against this?  (Again, don't tell me "cost" or "time" because the people who normally paint already know that isn't actually the problem.)  Is it a "don't tell me what to do!" thing, or "we've never done it so we don't want to" sort of thing?  I guess I'm not understanding the problem, and I REALLY don't understand why people think they can make accurate scoring calls, particularly for rimfire (but also for edge hits from centerfire) on plates with prior hits on them.  Particularly on far-away plates!

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

I added the numbering above because when quoting everything just jumbled together, and I wanted to try to be clear about what I was responding to.  ........

 

 

I'm kind of bored with the topic and haven't seen any issues in real life, so, best regards and bye until the next thing. 

[Farmer]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:49 AM, Squirrel45 said:

No paint= non scationed. Period. 

You wouldn't have a uspsa, icore or idpa match without tapeing. It's part of being a scationed disapline. If a club wants to run rouge/outlaw/clubby etc steel matches that's fine, but not call them steel challenge. 

 

For the group that view this as a social activity that's great, you can talk and paint at the same. Just think of the steps your getting in.

 

In the end we all want this to fun but fair, keep that in mind. Being lazy or frugal shouldn't be used a scapegoat. 

[schmidtg]

I am surprised this is controversial.

 

Competitive equity is diminished if a shooter can't dispute a hit on a target.  A mike is a serious penalty in this sport and it's unfair to call an edge hit (or even a hit on a metal support for a target, if the club uses them) if the shooter is unable to dispute the call.

 

Not to mention that stage reset is nowhere near as time-consuming as USPSA/IDPA; SCSA reset can be done in a fraction of the time as a field course in those sports.

 

Painting after each shooter is 100% common sense.

[RickT]

The challenge is enforcement.  If the MD has complete ownership of the match it's his/her way or, in the extreme, the highway.  We shouldn't need a tattle tail hot line; should be enough the recent official position on painting is crystal clear. 

[shred]

When it's 103'F in the shade at a local club match fun squad.. nobody wants to go paint and nobody cares that much about an extra hit now and then.

 

On my usual range it's easy to spot misses-- you can see the puff of dust on the backstop.   If it's way to the side, it was an edge hit.

 

 

[RickT]

If temperature is over XXX degrees the MD can simply say, "painting optional, scores will not be uploaded to SCSA".  It's still good practice and if an informal match no one will care.  Others sports offer gear exceptions in high temperatures.  Dust simply isn't reliable in all conditions and it puts more onus on the RO particularly on very fast stages.

 

I'd like to see an official position that only requires painting before each shooter in Tier 1 matches which would take some of the stress of 10 gun squads with only 5 shooters especially given that in any given squad there may be a couple of folks not up to painting. 

[shred]

How about "the squads that care about painting and SCSA scores can paint, and those that don't can skip it?" for L1s?  It's effectively how it works today around here. Those that want paint, paint and squad with other painters, those that don't don't.

 

I'm on the painting squad more than likely, but painting is not a big deal for 98% of local steel shooters and many would go away were it strictly enforced.  People just don't care to do extra "work" when they're out for fun.

 

[bigdawgbeav]

The official position of SCSA:

 

CHAPTER 4 – Range Equipment
4.1 Plate Painting
All plates are to be painted white (other colors OK for snowy weather) for the eight official Steel Challenge stages and will be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire. At Tier 1 (club match) plates used on a non-official stage may be painted a color other than white but must be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire. Care should be taken to paint the edges of the plates as well as the surface.

 

Why is this still a discussion?  

[varminter22]

I tend to agree with everyone that agrees with, and supports, the requirement to paint rule.  

 

That said, perhaps an option for a shooter to state paint not required before his/her run and he/she will accept the RO's call(s).  

 

It is amazing how so many steadfastly quote and enforce rules EXCEPT for a Level 1 match.  

[Flatland Shooter]

6 hours ago, varminter22 said:

 

That said, perhaps an option for a shooter to state paint not required before his/her run and he/she will accept the RO's call(s).  

.  

I am in full agreement.   I'm a fair weather shooter and I'm in the 98% that do not like to paint for every shooter.

 

If someone wants the steel painted, then we paint it.  

 

Let us Level 1 shooters decide.

[shred]

The issue is not so much what the rule says, it's what the shooters want to do, and there's a very low barrier to just calling a match "Steel Challenge" and skipping all the SCSA affiliation stuff.  Do serious SCSA shooters want half the matches to go outlaw or would it be better to relax the rule so they could stay SCSA?

 

[Hoops]

If scores are uploaded to USPSA/SCSA using classifier SC-xxx numbers it’s an official Steel Challenge match.  If a no-paint match calls themselves Steel Challenge and uses SC-xxx classifiers it non-official and should be outlaw match.  
 

If the culture of an “official “ SC match is hap-hazard painting the only recourse for a shooter is to be that guy and paint your own targets and/or reconsider where you shoot.  
 

why should rules apply for L1 USPSA matches and not for L1 SCSA (classifiers) matches is beyond me.  why?

 

 

[shred]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

If scores are uploaded to USPSA/SCSA using classifier SC-xxx numbers it’s an official Steel Challenge match.  If a no-paint match calls themselves Steel Challenge and uses SC-xxx classifiers it non-official and should be outlaw match. 

ANYONE can call ANY match an "official Steel Challenge match".  USPSA has no trademark rights to the term 'Steel Challenge' or the stage layouts themselves.

 

SCSA/USPSA needs to decide if they want to actually enforce the painting rule or make a L1 exception for it like there is in USPSA matches for steel targets.   Either way it's going to piss some people off, which is probably why they're doing the whole naa-naa-naa-I-can't-see-it routine.

 

[Joe4d]

On 5/16/2024 at 9:25 AM, shred said:

How about "the squads that care about painting and SCSA scores can paint, and those that don't can skip it?" for L1s?  It's effectively how it works today around here. Those that want paint, paint and squad with other painters, those that don't don't.

 

 

LOL,,, yeh and exactly what happens on the ground.. Official rulings till HQ is blue in the face ...  

And to Hoops ? again who gives a rip..  A liar cry baby that lies cheats and steals gets a point on a classifier he shouldnt have and now gets to compete at a higher level at a major... Ummm yeh not seeing the actual drawback here.

[superslowmo]

I nick a lot of plates on the edge, and sometimes the RO doesn’t hear it, so I don’t mind painting for each competitor.  People just have to move it and get it done quickly.  

[Flatland Shooter]

5 hours ago, superslowmo said:

I nick a lot of plates on the edge, and sometimes the RO doesn’t hear it, so I don’t mind painting for each competitor.  People just have to move it and get it done quickly.  

If you know you have a history of nicking plates, just request they paint the plates prioor to your run.  Easy peezy.

[Steelin]

Stick with the protocol paint, 

[zzt]

I'm surprised this discussion is still going on.  I'm with the mandatory painting crowd.  Fortunetly, at both clubs I shoot SCSA at, everyone paints.  I'll also note that on 5 man, 10 gun squads, we paint and still do not hold the next squad up.

[Tampa-XD45]

If I notice someone not painting, I hand them the paint can.  Always gets the message across without me saying a single word.

[PractricalUse]

It says in the Bible (or is it my TV remote instructions?), "Go forth and paint, lest ye be purged to the depths of hell."

 

Therefore, we should paint as per the rules.  Or, else.

 

The devil made me post this.

 

Yesterday my squad painted and the others didn't.  It really did not require a lot of waiting for the next squad.

 

Ed

 

 

[Farmer]

Pretty soon it’ll be, “naw we don’t need to paint”. Then it’ll be “Ehhh, the targets are close enough to where they should be”. Then will be, ahh that’s close enough on your time. And last will be the “How come nobody wants to come out and shoot? Bunch of losers…. They don’t appreciate all my hard work.  

[shred]

Do your local SCSA matches use properly-matched stand heights to keep all the plates at the requisite 5' or 5'6" height as seen by a surveying level from the shooting box?  Extremely few around here do and some of them physically can't due to how the range is set up.  It's all a matter of degree...

 

[zzt]

6 hours ago, shred said:

Do your local SCSA matches use properly-matched stand heights to keep all the plates at the requisite 5' or 5'6" height as seen by a surveying level from the shooting box?  Extremely few around here do and some of them physically can't due to how the range is set up.  It's all a matter of degree...

 

 

Both of the clubs I shoot at do just that.  Surveying feathers in the ground at target locations.  Individual sticks cut to exact length and numbered 1-4 and stop.  The exact length is written is written on the back in case a new stick is required.   All five sticks are bundled at the stage and labeled before stowing.  Two or three can set up a Classifier in under 5 minutes, and it is perfect.  Some bays only support one Classifier.  Other, wide, long bays support multiple.  Just pay attention to the feather colors when setting up.

[schmidtg]

57 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Both of the clubs I shoot at do just that.  Surveying feathers in the ground at target locations.  Individual sticks cut to exact length and numbered 1-4 and stop.  The exact length is written is written on the back in case a new stick is required.   All five sticks are bundled at the stage and labeled before stowing.  Two or three can set up a Classifier in under 5 minutes, and it is perfect.  Some bays only support one Classifier.  Other, wide, long bays support multiple.  Just pay attention to the feather colors when setting up.

That alone isn't enough to ensure the targets are at the proper height.  They might measure at the appropriate height where they are placed but not from the shooting box.

 

What @shred is referring to is almost impossible to achieve without a laser level because not all shooting range bays are perfectly flat.