USPSA physicality poll

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, shred said:

As someone that was shooting then, "30-yard sprints." were very rarely seen.  You'd have Rhodesian walls and gates to climb or jump over and doors and windows and tubes and low ports, shooting out of cars and stuff to drag or carry (you know, "Practical"), but sprinting distances for no reason?  Not so much.

 

 

Sometimes running might be the most practical thing you can possibly do. 

 

I'm not an advocate for huge amounts of running or anything, but I do think the complaining about running greatly outstrips the actual running

[shred]

It's probably because most of the time it's obvious the running is thrown into a stage for no reason except the MD or stage designer is better at running than shooting.

[Makicjf]

I feel like USPSA is in a transitional state.  With 90(ish) % of shooters using dots, partials, NS's and distance shots are less challenging.  The capacity boom brought in by CO, PCC and now LO has ushered in what I call "hitchy" stages.  Odd target arrays which take away the ability to pick a spot and hose all but a few targets.  This has resulted in intricate stages with multiple positions required.

  If nearly everyone has dots for tight shots and distance and extra bb's for make ups what remains to make stages challenging and interesting?

   The obvious answer is tighter partials, hitchy stages and forced running.  Technological advancements have made the sport easier: the result is what we are seeing.

Ymmv

Jason

[MikeyScuba]

An IPSC official up here told an MD that there shouldn't be stage design that gives an advantage to those who are physically fit.   This was in response to a horseshoe stage where 2 or 3 of us jumped across and there was video that made it to FB.  To be honest I don't think it saved us any time but was fun to try.  The official in question was a rotund woman who IMO should just shoot bullseye.

[J_Allen]

I think the example of options - running vs taking the longer shot - is not reality. Take bay 1 of Area 3, it’s like 75 yards long and they used to set up the stage to allow just that option. But NOBODY chose to run, the default was pretty much just take the longer shots. Didn’t matter if it was irons or dot divisions either. So you either force everyone to run long between required positions or you don’t. In a sport where tenths (I won’t say hundreths!) of seconds can make a difference in scoring, a forced run of many seconds doesn’t seem to be warranted. Just my opinion.

[broadside72]

3 minutes ago, J_Allen said:

I think the example of options - running vs taking the longer shot - is not reality. Take bay 1 of Area 3, it’s like 75 yards long and they used to set up the stage to allow just that option. But NOBODY chose to run, the default was pretty much just take the longer shots. Didn’t matter if it was irons or dot divisions either. So you either force everyone to run long between required positions or you don’t. In a sport where tenths (I won’t say hundreths!) of seconds can make a difference in scoring, a forced run of many seconds doesn’t seem to be warranted. Just my opinion.

 

When you build such a stage, you need to have a few folks make the run from the various spots you could run from and determine the time it will take on average. Then you need to assess the time required for hard aimed shots. If you can design them so the run is the same as aiming or even slightly longer, then there are options to the stage plan for most shooters. Give the physical person the ability to outrun their aiming and points down, and give the better shot a chance when a less physical person. 

It is a hard thing to balance. I have tried it twice. The first time, the target presentations were too hard from the far position so most folks ran and that was the only legit option. The second time was much better, easier targets but still a challenge. Most folks still chose to run but most of them didn't even realize the targets presented from the other locations. 

I won't build those kinds of stages very often as it is very hard to balance it.

[IHAVEGAS]

41 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

When you build such a stage, 
 

It had better be because you are trying to cut down on the number of people who volunteer to run the timers  . 
 

 

[RJH]

Well just looking at the poll results, I figured that good enough was good enough would be number one and it is, but it surprises me that by a large margin people seem to want more physicality at matches in the number two spot. With as much complaining as I hear on Enos, I felt action bullseye would be in the number two spot. But it appears people don't just want to shoot el prez's all day

[pskys2]

21 hours ago, herky said:

At almost 78 years old, none of it is as easy as it was 30 years ago.  LOL

You got 10 on me and I know I am slowing down.  Hope im still at it like you then.

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

It had better be because you are trying to cut down on the number of people who volunteer to run the timers  . 
 

 

Kind of a conundrum?

I'd rather have a physical stage vs a memory stage. But you design it and run it and I won't gripe about shooting it.  And give me the courtesy in reverse.

Edited March 21 by pskys2

[IHAVEGAS]

33 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Kind of a conundrum?

I'd rather have a physical stage vs a memory stage. But you design it and run it and I won't gripe about shooting it.  And give me the courtesy in reverse.

 

As just a shooter I'd also rather have a physical stage. To me memory stages are a lot like being at work. 

 

If a major involves somebody chasing after dozens of shooters on a track meet stage, or it is a local on a hot arse day, I think the griping is an earned privilege. 

Edited March 21 by IHAVEGAS

[shred]

"Memory" stages are likewise nearly always crappy stage design.

 

[RangerTrace]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

As just a shooter I'd also rather have a physical stage. To me memory stages are a lot like being at work. 

 

If a major involves somebody chasing after dozens of shooters on a track meet stage, or it is a local on a hot arse day, I think the griping is an earned privilege. 

AMen

[RJH]

Nothing wrong with memory stages. I don't love them, but they do test certain skills

[J_Allen]

Memory stages just require more walk through before the match starts. Burn in the required positions and you should be set. So they just penalize the shooters that don’t show up as early - not exactly a practical skill. 
 

Now before anyone thinks I’m just complaining (because that is essentially what my last two posts have been), if done correctly I have no problem with either physical stages or memory stages - just seems like it is easier to fall into gimmicky territory when trying to implement those two categories.

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, RJH said:

Well just looking at the poll results, I figured that good enough was good enough would be number one and it is, but it surprises me that by a large margin people seem to want more physicality at matches in the number two spot. With as much complaining as I hear on Enos, I felt action bullseye would be in the number two spot. But it appears people don't just want to shoot el prez's all day

I think most of the complaining is from the same two or three people that don’t even shoot anymore. I think most of the matches I do are pretty well, balanced, and have enough physicality, but I suspect it is more than some other parts of the country.

 

The bottom line is that after set up, then six stages with reset and then tear down. I am usually pretty darn tired at the end of the day.

[motosapiens]

what constitutes a physical stage? I have done plenty of stages at nationals that require 20 or 30 total yards of running, but that doesn’t really seem all that physical to me.

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

what constitutes a physical stage? I have done plenty of stages at nationals that require 20 or 30 total yards of running, but that doesn’t really seem all that physical to me.

 

Probably everyone has their own definition. To me a track meet stage is when you are basically running from close easy target to close easy target and never or almost never needing front sight focus. Otherwise a physical stage is one where your squad looks at it and folks say holy s#!t that is a lot of running, not sure what yardage that would be. 

 

I think that few, if any, get heartburn from having one stage of a particular flavor at a match as long as there is some balance overall and that the stage isn't extreme enough to weigh disproportionately in the overall score.  

 

The worst (just opinion) stage I ever shot was one that utilized a drop turner that some few could make a 15 yard dash and get to in time and the large majority lost several seconds waiting for its final presentation at the starting position, there was also a final 25-30 yard dash for no apparent reason to get to the last array. 

[shred]

"Memory" stages are dumb at majors (especially IPSC matches where you only get 4 minute walkthroughs), as are 'sequence' stages with complicated activator sequences because by Day 2 everybody knows what the best plan is, while most of the Day 1 shooters get screwed.  

 

[RangerTrace]

On 3/21/2024 at 5:13 PM, RJH said:

Nothing wrong with memory stages. I don't love them, but they do test certain skills

Yes, your memory or your ability/time to walk the stages the day before.  I hate them.

[MHicks]

The last memory stage I shot was reasonable. From 3 positions I could shoot everything without confusion.  Some shooters shot more as they were moving laterally.  But some memory stages can get ridiculous. 

[zzt]

On 3/21/2024 at 9:27 AM, shred said:

As someone that was shooting then, "30-yard sprints." were very rarely seen.  You'd have Rhodesian walls and gates to climb or jump over and doors and windows and tubes and low ports, shooting out of cars and stuff to drag or carry (you know, "Practical"), but sprinting distances for no reason?  Not so much.

 

This ^^^^.  I don't mind doors, drop ports, shooting from swaying bridges, running up and down A frames, throwing a 20 lb. sack of sand onto an activator that is out of the shooting area, unloaded starts where every mag you will use has to be on the start table, seated starts, etc.  What I don't like about some of these props is when the stage designer decides to get to cute.  On a stage at a LIII match, the shooter had to run up a 6' A frame, engage one target at the top and another halfway down the opposite side while descending.  I warned shooters about the slippery A frame.  After two squads it was muddy.  Even so, a few got DQ'd because they slid down too fast and broke 180 while engaging the target.  IMO, that is not good stage design.

 

My main problem with track meets is I'm old and slow (76).  I don't care for score.  Bit it is very tiring when you RO five shooters and have to run along with them for a total of 40 yards, then walk it again scoring.  On some stages I have to give up the timer, because I can't keep up with the jack rabbits.  On others where you have to run backwards 20 yards for the first shot, I definitely give up the timer.  Otherwise, I'll end up down range of the speedsters.

 

Stage designs that allow a number of approaches are interesting.  When you see six different stage plans executed, that's a well designed stage.  When everyone shoots it the same way, it's boring.  So are 32 round stages with only four views.  Shoot 8, run a little, shoot 8, repeat twice.  Geez!  Have a two target array shot through a port.  Run around a wall and shoot three targets.  Run up, shoot two on the left and two on the right.  Mix it up.  Throw in a head shot and a long one.

Edited March 24 by zzt

[Joe4d]

kinda whipped this up,, not a stage designer, but lets say the shooting area is 25 yards deep, example of a bad stage with no shooting challenge, only a running challenge. Track pdf

Compare to shoot pdf,, nearly identical lay out with a few changes to shooting area and visjon barrier... Suddenly its a shooting challenge with several options..
 

track.pdf shoot.pdf

Edited March 24 by Joe4d

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

kinda whipped this up,, not a stage designer, but lets say the shooting area is 25 yards deep, example of a bad stage with no shooting challenge, only a running challenge. Track pdf

Compare to shoot pdf,, nearly identical lay out with a few changes to shooting area and visjon barrier... Suddenly its a shooting challenge with several options..

 

track.pdf 196.4 kB · 4 downloads shoot.pdf 181.73 kB · 4 downloads

 

My phone won't open those files, can you screenshot them or something

[ColoradoNick]

Based on the latest USPSA magazine, there's not nearly enough physicality in this sport. I think that applies to society in general though.