Dr Mitch Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Iron sights are becoming impractical in a generalized overall sense, more of a generational way, as red dot optics have gotten extremely good. Irons are just as good as dots, or faster, at fairly short distances, but at longer distances the skill required takes many more tens of thousands of rounds of practice per year to shoot as well at the same speed. The population of shooters growing up in the last ten years has been growing up with slide mounted dot optics, and their shooting heroes use dots. Nearly all the new-to-USPSA shooters in my area come with dot guns. 99%+. It’s the same for rifles as commented above. I’ve now got one iron sighted rifle and nine rifles with either LPVOs or red dots. We’re watching history happen, and the future is red dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 I'm waiting for that first big EMP ... My iron sights will still work. Not so sure about my electronic red dots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 6 hours ago, shred said: The big difference is USPSA does not mandate the 3-short 2-med 1-long split of stages. Neither does IPSC for club matches. I think the 3-2-1 kicks in for sanctioned matches, which I think are Level 2 or higher (might be even level 3) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Granted, a L2 only requires 3 stages ... So, hard to get a 3/2/1 mix. A L2 should be at least 6 stages ... So, a 3/2/1 mix is eminently doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 6 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: GAWD NO! Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 One division? Limited MINOR? I'm a firm believer in Major/minor options. We need to avoid sissifying the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstone45 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 9 hours ago, BritinUSA said: Neither does IPSC for club matches. I think the 3-2-1 kicks in for sanctioned matches, which I think are Level 2 or higher (might be even level 3) L2 need to be sanctioned by your local IPSC region, so it's up to them what criteria they set. L3+ need to be sanctioned by IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 21 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said: More typically, 3-4 out of 6. It does affect the calculus on capacity some WRT 15 rounds loaded. Reminder ... IPSC medium courses can be up to 24 rounds. USPSA is only up to 20. up to 24,,, what 13-24 IIRC ? So I was counting on 1 or 2 lower mediums.. Which reminds me. The year I shot USPSA nationals was surprised how few reloads I made shooting limited with 22 round mags. Rescomp tubes, bolen guts U die.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 It's almost like it should be a shooting match or something. Who knew? Seriously USPSA shooters often equate short courses with "classifiers", which are mostly not particularly fun. IPSC does them much better in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, shred said: It's almost like it should be a shooting match or something. Who knew? Seriously USPSA shooters often equate short courses with "classifiers", which are mostly not particularly fun. IPSC does them much better in my experience. In my observations, we tend to have shooters go to various places in a CoF where they need to fire 6-8 rounds then move on. This is true whether you're on an 8 round CoF or a 32 round CoF. Hence, even now with the limits removed on 'no more than 2 locations or views' for short courses, our short courses tend to be rather static and, quite frankly, boring. On the other hand, IPSC has for a number of years viewed the entire sport as a 'Dynamic' shooting sport. i.e., Movement, preferably while shooting, is somewhat required. I've seen 12 round IPSC courses which could not possibly be done in less than 3 positions ... but were more efficiently approached as 'Beep, shoot, run and keep shooting until you got to the end.' That's generally not a boring short course. Edited February 27 by Schutzenmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, shred said: Seriously USPSA shooters often equate short courses with "classifiers", which are mostly not particularly fun. IPSC does them much better in my experience. Short stages with movement are great. People generally shoot them the same way and as they are not a ‘foot race’ they are much more of a shooting challenge. Some of the best IPSC stages I’ve seen were short/medium courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 hours ago, shred said: Seriously USPSA shooters often equate short courses with "classifiers", which are mostly not particularly fun. IPSC does them much better in my experience. I really wish the clubs I shoot at would go back to demanding short courses. At my favorite club, short courses now are mostly stuffed into the short bays. Hose fests. The young designers now make courses in the long and wide bays they like to shoot. Lots of running and 32 rounds. Let's make the Open shooters reload. Really, how well you do depends almost entirely on how fast you run. Some shots are difficult, but mostly it is run/plant/shoot, repeat, repeat, repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 25 minutes ago, zzt said: [...] but mostly it is run/plant/shoot, repeat, repeat, repeat. Yep ... BORING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 When I said one division I meant by name only, just call it iron sights and within it you could do different things to different guns following a flow chart. So you could still have major or minor, revo or semi, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 14 hours ago, rowdyb said: When I said one division I meant by name only, just call it iron sights and within it you could do different things to different guns following a flow chart. So you could still have major or minor, revo or semi, and so on. We talk about this within my little group of USPSA regulars often. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but it does make sense in terms of efficiency to cram Prod/SS/Revo/L10 into one division and call it Low Capacity. It would still be the smallest and least competitive division even with all four combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 36 minutes ago, Dr Mitch said: We talk about this within my little group of USPSA regulars often. Not that it matters in the grand scheme of things, but it does make sense in terms of efficiency to cram Prod/SS/Revo/L10 into one division and call it Low Capacity. It would still be the smallest and least competitive division even with all four combined. I would love it if they would do that. It would actually kind of hearken back to the early days of USPSA. I would like to see a weight limit of about 45 Oz, a fit in the box rule, maybe the single stack box would be good the way it is now, and eight major 10 minor scoring. I mentioned the single stack box, but I'm not saying you would have to run a single stack gun, it would just have to fit in the box and maybe the box size would need a little tweaking. I would want glocks, 2011s, Berettas, etc to fit, but you might have to make some concessions on your wide safeties and or mag wells. Make it irons and no compensators, and and that is all. Any other thing you want to do to the gun would be legal The one exception would be revolvers, and if you were shooting a revolver there would be no rules other than eight major 10 minor scoring. In other words you could have a full open revolver with a red dot and weights hung all over it that didn't come close to fit in the box and that would be fine because, you're shooting a revolver LOL I know it will never happen, but that's what I would like to see. Still would only have about two people shooting it though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 major, minor, iron and optics. there you have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, outerlimits said: major, minor, iron and optics. there you have it. How does that get people to shoot more irons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 17 minutes ago, RJH said: How does that get people to shoot more irons? in doing so, you combine all the 9 appendixes into just 2. along the way all the different dumb rules associated with having 9 divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 26 minutes ago, RJH said: How does that get people to shoot more irons? because you give people what they have wanted for decades,,, a place to shoot the most common platforms in the world, at its full capacity in a competitive division. A double stack 9mm.. But really I like your older idea... I think it was you.. Should just do away with ALL divisions except at the GM level... Divisions AND classifications are stupid... . having divisions is just admitting classifications dont work. People shoot and classify with what ever gun they want.. Should still fall in same area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 On 2/28/2024 at 10:22 AM, RJH said: ...and if you were shooting a revolver there would be no rules other than eight major 10 minor scoring. That would be fun... Bring S&W 617 into the mix for minor scoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 The only people worried about divisions and constantly trying to tweak them seem to be the regulars on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 14 minutes ago, IVC said: That would be fun... Bring S&W 617 into the mix for minor scoring I guess I should have clarified that minor would still need to be .355. Damn gamers LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximis228 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Be the change you want to see. Put on iron sight only matches. Design stages you like and submit them to MDs. People will do anything but create the fun they want to see themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 Just now, Maximis228 said: Be the change you want to see. Put on iron sight only matches. Design stages you like and submit them to MDs. People will do anything but create the fun they want to see themselves. This is kind of my point at the beginning of this thread, a whole Nationals with stages designed around Ironsight guns couldn't fill up. I watched a video from single stack Nationals a few years back and there were 350 competitors for that division alone, and this year there were not 350 competitors for all Ironsight divisions combined at a Nationals specifically for them In other words I'm not sure setting up a match for only Iron sight guns is going to get any traction. I'm also not saying changing up the divisions is going to get any traction either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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