Any hope for Ironsight divisions?

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

A ? more like all of them.. always somethign,  dead battery , lose, cant get battery in, blinking dot, wont hold zero.. thats with all the major players.. 

 

ive shot at least 10k rounds without a single tiny hiccup from a dot in the last year. working at majors i rarely see issues anymore.

[oddjob]

"Irons are harder and almost impossible for the Seniors+."

 

As a Super Senior I agree.......Even the timer is sometimes hard to hear!! 

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, Joe4d said:

A ? more like all of them.. always somethign,  dead battery , lose, cant get battery in, blinking dot, wont hold zero.. thats with all the major players.. 

 

 

Have you personally had all these issues recently with optics? 

 

I also see way less optic problems these days, both with my own gear and with guys at matches. 

[MHicks]

2 hours ago, oddjob said:

"Irons are harder and almost impossible for the Seniors+."

 

As a Super Senior I agree.......Even the timer is sometimes hard to hear!! 

 

Among all of the expenses to regularly shoot matches, the cost for prescription glasses that work with iron sights isn't that much. If you rarely shoot I guess people are hesitant to spend the money but if you're shooting several matches a month it's well worth it. Same is true if you need a prescription for optics.

[ltdmstr]

20 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Irons are harder and almost impossible for the Seniors+.  

 

I can't read anything without glasses, but still manage fine with irons using corrected lens for the dominant eye.  Works great.  Problem is, I've got plenty of other age-related complications to deal with!

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Have you personally had all these issues recently with optics? 

 

I also see way less optic problems these days, both with my own gear and with guys at matches. 

yep,, Probably be selling some soon. Viper went dead on me before a match,,, had issues getting it back on ,,, it has no bottom,, ended up bending a pin.. ruined match...
Replaced and put it on my 22/45.. worked fine changed battery a time or 2 being more careful,,, went out to confirm zero this spring and it would not hold zero, luckily found before I drove  to a steel match. I  pulled it put a venom on that I had...So far so good, but the 22/45 is basically a toy and I wouldnt drive far for steel challenge. No more sights for me that need removing to change battery,
Burris FFIII ? didnt even make it on a gun.. crap design, couldnt get battery in, returned it.
FTP,, went to practice last week, battery was dead after only being used a couple times,, didnt have correct allen wrench the size of a gnats hair to change battery,, then got to play with 2 screws the size of said gnats hairs..
Burris IV,, new used a couple of times,,, dot likes to blink off at random intervals..
Yeh worse thing I ever had with irons was the fiber optic coming out ,, and I still had a useable sight,,
So yall enjoy  , been there , tried it, didnt get the t shirt

 

[motosapiens]

hmm, although my ff3 was troublefree for the 6 months or so i owned it, my advice would be to spend more than $179 on an optic.

[shred]

Yeah.  Open gunners figured out what dots were reliable about 3 decades ago.  Slides abuse them more, but there are some options that go 20K or more now.  Few are cheap though.

 

 

[Joe4d]

On 5/29/2024 at 10:19 AM, motosapiens said:

ive shot at least 10k rounds without a single tiny hiccup from a dot in the last year. working at majors i rarely see issues anymore.

 I have 150 yo guns with irons that work great.
Best thing I can say about the FF3 was it was easy to return for a refund.
Waited on the 4 to come out, and it seemed  much better till it started blinking every shot after about 4 or 5 sessions. mounted on a 22 revolver. 
I bought what I figured was fairly well reviewed optics.. The FTP for instance....Holosun,  Venom has been the longest lasting and so far so good..  I see all those 30 years ago folks liked C mores,, and humm how many of the new style Cmores were garbage and how many generations have they been through to get one to work ?

Glad you guys like them,, havent worked for me,, and I dont trust them enough to use at  the couple matches a year I can make.
 

[Racinready300ex]

19 hours ago, Joe4d said:

yep,, Probably be selling some soon. Viper went dead on me before a match,,, had issues getting it back on ,,, it has no bottom,, ended up bending a pin.. ruined match...
Replaced and put it on my 22/45.. worked fine changed battery a time or 2 being more careful,,, went out to confirm zero this spring and it would not hold zero, luckily found before I drove  to a steel match. I  pulled it put a venom on that I had...So far so good, but the 22/45 is basically a toy and I wouldnt drive far for steel challenge. No more sights for me that need removing to change battery,
Burris FFIII ? didnt even make it on a gun.. crap design, couldnt get battery in, returned it.
FTP,, went to practice last week, battery was dead after only being used a couple times,, didnt have correct allen wrench the size of a gnats hair to change battery,, then got to play with 2 screws the size of said gnats hairs..
Burris IV,, new used a couple of times,,, dot likes to blink off at random intervals..
Yeh worse thing I ever had with irons was the fiber optic coming out ,, and I still had a useable sight,,
So yall enjoy  , been there , tried it, didnt get the t shirt

 

 

Let's be fair here though, you're kind of condemning the idea of optic because of poor reliability while also picking the cheapest optics with reputations for the worst reliability. You do kind of get what you pay for in this arena. 

 

 

[Joe4d]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Let's be fair here though, you're kind of condemning the idea of optic because of poor reliability while also picking the cheapest optics with reputations for the worst reliability. You do kind of get what you pay for in this arena. 

 

 

umm the cheaper venom is the one that has been the best ... Most gave good reviews on the burris back when I bought it. The FTP advertised on here often is pretty highly rated.. and worked till battery went dead after only a few sessions and a couple months in the safe.. the issue was the gnats hair screws holding the battery tray in.// But hey.. like I said. If they work for you great.. I have no use for them..   Just relearning a lesson from my bowling pin days...   pulled the gadgets, started winning.

 

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, Joe4d said:

umm the cheaper venom is the one that has been the best ... Most gave good reviews on the burris back when I bought it. The FTP advertised on here often is pretty highly rated.. and worked till battery went dead after only a few sessions and a couple months in the safe.. the issue was the gnats hair screws holding the battery tray in.// But hey.. like I said. If they work for you great.. I have no use for them..   Just relearning a lesson from my bowling pin days...   pulled the gadgets, started winning.

 

 

Some things that stand out here too. I mentioned above I see "less problems these days" this was meant to imply with newer optics on the market today, or at least optics that have been improved since their release. So when I was asking about recent problems I'm talking about recent problems with the newer crop of optics on the market.

 

You mentioned good reviews on the Burris "back when you bought it" how long ago was that? 

 

I'm not shocked at all that your experience with optics is the opposite of mine based on what you used. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

Only somewhat related. I taught a class Wed night, all the students had optics on their guns. First time that's happened. 

[CarlB86]

On 5/23/2024 at 3:06 PM, BiknSwans said:

 

I agree 100%.  I love Practiscore, but displaying overall results was a bad decision.  I still shoot Production, but it's getting lonely.  Just looking at overall scores contributes to an arms equipment race that doesn't interest me.

 

I would suggest that overall results be available only in Practiscore Competitor.  If you insist (wrongly) that overall scores are of interest, feel free to pay the $10 fee and enjoy all the benefits of Practiscore Competitor, which I fire up after every match.  It's easy to compare scores with another competitor and the graphics are enlightening at times.  It's a powerful and feature filled app.

 

And a little extra income for the developers would be most welcome.  USPSA isn't charged anything for the use of the Practiscore app, but then again, USPSA has no control over Practiscore, or there wouldn't be any overall results posted.

Not only did it contribute to an arms race and obsession about having the best gear, but it isn't the correct per shooter scoring when looking at the overall. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Give the option to run 155mm mags for minor. 

with 3 or so rounds minor isn’t all that attractive but with 5 or so it Atleast worth giving some thought to it.
otherwise limited will die. 
  

Edited June 11 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter
Because funny monitor with access to change your post altered it before I was done posting.

[RJH]

4 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Give the option to run 155mm mags for minor. 

with 3 or so rounds minor isn’t all that attractive but with 5 or so it Atleast worth giving some thought to it.
otherwise limited will die. 
  

 

Or 171s.....

 

No reason to reinvent the wheel with 155s

Edited June 11 by RJH

[Foxtrotx1]

On 5/28/2024 at 9:48 AM, ltdmstr said:

Those who point to LEO/self defense market being dominated by 9mm to justify lowering or doing away with power factor requirements, or to poo poo .40, seem to ignore the fact that no real world LEO/self-defense ammo clocks in at a measly 125 pf.  And many of the proven effective rounds, like the ISP +P+, are actually closer to major than minor. 

It's not about the ammo, it's about keeping the sport relevant and with the times. If the sport is going to survive it needs manufactures making guns that fit the divisions, or the divisions changing. People want to shoot what's popular. Not everybody want to buy a .40 just to shoot matches part of the year, and it's only going to get worse. 

Edited June 11 by Foxtrotx1

[shred]

It's more than just that.  Nobody bought STI Edges in .40 and then decided to go shoot matches with them-- they went and got one after they got into USPSA.

[Joe4d]

12 hours ago, shred said:

It's more than just that.  Nobody bought STI Edges in .40 and then decided to go shoot matches with them-- they went and got one after they got into USPSA.

good point,, I shot my first IPSC match with a SS 9mm I had built for IDPA. I then went home and ordered a Para Ord 16/40.  Shot snot out of that gun.. Ironically in a 10 round state...  then moved to an STI Eagle 6"..

SO now I guess instead of getting into USPSA then going out and buying a gun to fit, people want to change the rules to fit the gun they have.... hummm

 

[shred]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

good point,, I shot my first IPSC match with a SS 9mm I had built for IDPA. I then went home and ordered a Para Ord 16/40.  Shot snot out of that gun.. Ironically in a 10 round state...  then moved to an STI Eagle 6"..

SO now I guess instead of getting into USPSA then going out and buying a gun to fit, people want to change the rules to fit the gun they have.... hummm

 

Yeah, it went from the original Cooper "all guns compete together so we'll find out which the best is" to "run what you brung... and if what you brung doesn't fit, we'll make a division for it"

 

[Joe4d]

32 minutes ago, shred said:

Yeah, it went from the original Cooper "all guns compete together so we'll find out which the best is" to "run what you brung... and if what you brung doesn't fit, we'll make a division for it"

 

LOL, pretty much,, Probably in all sports though.. I got involved in Endurance Horse racing.. Endurance by rule was 50 plus miles...
People cried because their horse couldnt do 50 miles.,,, so they created a 25 mile division,,, oh and guess what ? people cried they and/ or horse couldnt do 25,, so now their is a 15 mile division..
There were also originally 2 winners,, the horse that crossed the line first, was winner... Another winner was "best condition"  BC was awarded to horse based on how it looked at the end, its pulse rate,,, etc judged by vets usually.. Part of the formula was rider and tack weight.. Heavier rider got more points...
Soooo guess what.. all the skinny people cried because generally a heavyweight rider that finished in say top 5,, won BC...
Sooo now some rides have high vet score.. Same judged score on the horse, but leaves out rider weight.

Seems there is no end to people that will spend more time and effort crying about the ruleset, than they will simply training harder, or getting better suited equipment ( or horses),, or simply facing facts they arnt competitive and just enjoy the day.

 

[MHicks]

44 minutes ago, shred said:

Yeah, it went from the original Cooper "all guns compete together so we'll find out which the best is" to "run what you brung... and if what you brung doesn't fit, we'll make a division for it"

 

 

I've only been in USPSA since 2008.  But previously to that, with just the one division eventually the full open guns were developed.  Not everyone wants to shoot one of those. I hate the blast from them. 

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Yeah, it went from the original Cooper "all guns compete together so we'll find out which the best is" to "run what you brung... and if what you brung doesn't fit, we'll make a division for it"

Because back then, most guns were very similar. Only with customization did the guns become radically different.

 

Once the customization started there were two options; create separate divisions or stay with a single one. If the latter then only Open division would exist, the sport would be more expensive  and there would be no choices for new members.

 

If the divisions are well defined and each offers advantages (and disadvantages) to the other divisions, then clear choices are available. Competitors can choose based on preference, cost, availability and ability.

[RJH]

9 hours ago, Joe4d said:

.

SO now I guess instead of getting into USPSA then going out and buying a gun to fit, people want to change the rules to fit the gun they have.... hummm

 

 

 

This is what people want to think happened, but most of the people I see shooting a limited optics gun or a carry optics gun we're shooting for a while before they switch to those divisions. 

 

So it's more like let's create divisions people actually want to shoot, and then we will gain new competitors and retain more old competitors. 

 

 

It seems most people that b**** about the new divisions that were created either don't shoot, shoot open, or are currently shooting one of the new divisions. 

 

People that shoot open don't actually matter in the grand scheme of all this because any division is a dilution of the original concept. So open shooters griping about how many divisions there are doesn't make any sense, because all pistols fit in open division, but we didn't hear them gripe when there were only five or six divisions, only since the last two got real popular

 

There are several people on this site that don't even shoot USPSA anymore, generally for a made-up reasons, but they sure chime in on a lot of it LOL 

 

And then we have the people that gripe about how it used to be, but instead of shooting and Ironsight division, they're shooting a DOT minor division like everybody else. In other words they're pretty hypocritical 

 

 

 

 

[RJH]

7 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

 

 

If the divisions are well defined and each offers advantages (and disadvantages) to the other divisions, then clear choices are available. Competitors can choose based on preference, cost, availability and ability.

 

 

And this is what we have now. And judging from the numbers, there's about three divisions people like and the rest they don't really give a crap about.