Any hope for Ironsight divisions?

[Blaize]

15 hours ago, shred said:

We've had that for 30 years-  Production.   

 

So you only got 10 rounds, it was the same for everyone and they were all equally competitive, right?

 

Ok I give up. The thread was started for discussion on why iron sight divisions are dying and or dead.

 

posts and attitudes like this are exactly why they are. 10 rounds just sucks to deal with in this game. Point blank. 
 

Have fun. 

[Joe4d]

9 minutes ago, Blaize said:

Ok I give up. The thread was started for discussion on why iron sight divisions are dying and or dead.

 

posts and attitudes like this are exactly why they are. 10 rounds just sucks to deal with in this game. Point blank. 
 

Have fun. 

exactly. no point in trying to explain the obvious to folks that cant or wont grasp the issue.
Iron sights arnt dead,, they were killed off due to short sighted management. 
Go read 25 years of threads about allowing 9mm major in limited, creating limited with minor only scoring,, doing away with minor major scoring and make it all one score system with a power factor walmart white box 9mm could make.... doing away with 10 round limits in production.. Creating 4 divisions,, Open major, Open minor, Limited major, Limited Minnnnneeeer.   then a locap 10/8..
All comes down to the same single issue,, there is not and never has been a place for the most common handgun type in the world to be competitive with readily available and cheaper than anything else to the point it isnt worth the time to reload.. 9mm ammo.
And there never will be because the same mismanages seem to think iron sights are dyeing. CO was driven by the 140mm mags and stock and home modified service 9mm. not the optic. No doubt in my mind production would have boomed if they went to 140mm mags the same day CO did

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Blaize said:

Ok I give up. The thread was started for discussion on why iron sight divisions are dying and or dead.

 

posts and attitudes like this are exactly why they are. 10 rounds just sucks to deal with in this game. Point blank. 
 

Have fun. 

it seems like there is an excuse for everything. 10 rounds sucks, not getting major scoring sucks, etc… i’m confident there would still be excuses if you could load to 17 rds in a minor limited division, and no one would shoot it because iron sights are hard and people are lazy.

 

iron sights used to be hugely popular. nothing significant changed except for red dots in other divisions, now no one shoots iron sights.

 

even the people who loved limited major and the people who loved 10 round production stopped shooting irons, and obviously not because of capacity or the terrible trials of reloading or the incredibly painful recoil of 40.

Edited May 23 by motosapiens

[Effectus Magis Per Minor]

I think Practiscore contributed to this. The default view is overall results, not division results and I think this has caused many to unjustly be dissatisfied with their match performance. I believe if the default view was the division that the shooter competed in, and they had to seek the overall results (or not even have them because they really are irrelevant), that irons would make a come back. I talk to many shooters that are only interested in overall results for club matches. 

[BiknSwans]

16 minutes ago, Effectus Magis Per Minor said:

I think Practiscore contributed to this. The default view is overall results, not division results and I think this has caused many to unjustly be dissatisfied with their match performance. I believe if the default view was the division that the shooter competed in, and they had to seek the overall results (or not even have them because they really are irrelevant), that irons would make a come back. I talk to many shooters that are only interested in overall results for club matches. 

 

I agree 100%.  I love Practiscore, but displaying overall results was a bad decision.  I still shoot Production, but it's getting lonely.  Just looking at overall scores contributes to an arms equipment race that doesn't interest me.

 

I would suggest that overall results be available only in Practiscore Competitor.  If you insist (wrongly) that overall scores are of interest, feel free to pay the $10 fee and enjoy all the benefits of Practiscore Competitor, which I fire up after every match.  It's easy to compare scores with another competitor and the graphics are enlightening at times.  It's a powerful and feature filled app.

 

And a little extra income for the developers would be most welcome.  USPSA isn't charged anything for the use of the Practiscore app, but then again, USPSA has no control over Practiscore, or there wouldn't be any overall results posted.

[JohnZ]

As someone who shoots a 6 shot revolver with irons, I will just keep my mouth shut!!

 

[Effectus Magis Per Minor]

40 minutes ago, JohnZ said:

As someone who shoots a 6 shot revolver with irons, I will just keep my mouth shut!!

 

I am shooting single stack, jump in! Haha

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, Blaize said:

10 rounds just sucks to deal with in this game. Point blank. 

 

Or it was part of the challenges and skill sets that made the game fun. Different strokes. I'm getting older now so the special needs stuff (dots & high capacity mags) is age appropriate for me, I guess I don't have a dog in the fight. 

[RJH]

So one more time, for those that don't know. The overall results were available way back before practiscore was a thing. 

 

We used to always post or show the overall results in ez win score. 

 

I am not saying everywhere did it, but the matches I shoot always did, and everyone wanted to see them 

Edited May 24 by RJH

[AKGrahamw]

I shot production last week for the first time in 4 years, what an adventure.  First stage, lost count and sitting flat footed with an empty gun, muttering four letter words while trying to reload.  Rest of the night it was Just because the front site is on target, the barrel may not.   I shoot CO/LO most of the time since its hard to see iron sights.  My production gun may have left the safe for the last time.

 

[shred]

15 hours ago, RJH said:

So one more time, for those that don't know. The overall results were available way back before practiscore was a thing. 

 

We used to always post or show the overall results in ez win score. 

 

I am not saying everywhere did it, but the matches I shoot always did, and everyone wanted to see them 

This.  Scores were never segregated by division even in the 1990s with EzScore before Windows and EZWinScore were even a thing.  IPSC was the only one that rigorously enforced the separation. 

 

Practiscore actually made it easier to do division splits because getting the stats person to print another set of printouts per division was not easy.  That odd wall in the middle of the U-shaped pond at Frostproof was where they'd staple up score printouts for shooters to check scores.

 

Production, even with 10 rounds only used to be a monster division with all the heat in it.   Making it hicap earlier might have made it less-deader now, but it would still be dying. 

 

[pskys2]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

it seems like there is an excuse for everything. 10 rounds sucks, not getting major scoring sucks, etc… i’m confident there would still be excuses if you could load to 17 rds in a minor limited division, and no one would shoot it because iron sights are hard and people are lazy.

 

iron sights used to be hugely popular. nothing significant changed except for red dots in other divisions, now no one shoots iron sights.

 

even the people who loved limited major and the people who loved 10 round production stopped shooting irons, and obviously not because of capacity or the terrible trials of reloading or the incredibly painful recoil of 40.

I keep shooting irons because I am too lazy, and unwilling to spend the time and money needed, to transition to a dot. Even with the usual eyesight issues of age I still shoot better with irons.  Kind of hard to teach this old dog, new tricks.

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

I keep shooting irons because I am too lazy, and unwilling to spend the time and money needed, to transition to a dot. Even with the usual eyesight issues of age I still shoot better with irons.  Kind of hard to teach this old dog, new tricks. 

I am with you, I am done dealing with unreliable dots,,, always a problem,, I just hate gadgets.. Will be my last match with a dot, Irons work, just about always work. Gout out 627 to check zero at 50 yards, and of course battery dead,, and of course cant find right allen to get tray open.. Ida lost my mind if I drove 2.5 hours with it... My 617 I used an LPA rear, and zeroed irons under the dot so an pull dot and still shoot.. Shoulda done same with 627,, 30 round stages kinda screw me with the 7 shot

[JohnZ]

You are all falling into the super secret sick plan of the Communist Chinese who make all these dang dots and batteries, they are going to wait until everyone's batteries are dead, then they won't sell anymore to America, then they will invade a sightless Country, only to find my old cranky self waiting with M1 Garand, Mossburg pump, 1911 and trusty revolver waiting to defend the Country I love!! Have a great weekend, and PLEASE take a moment or 2 to think about the REAL meaning of Memorial Day, thanks and Semper Fi and God Bless.

[MHicks]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

I am with you, I am done dealing with unreliable dots,,, always a problem,, I just hate gadgets.. Will be my last match with a dot, Irons work, just about always work. Gout out 627 to check zero at 50 yards, and of course battery dead,, and of course cant find right allen to get tray open.. Ida lost my mind if I drove 2.5 hours with it... My 617 I used an LPA rear, and zeroed irons under the dot so an pull dot and still shoot.. Shoulda done same with 627,, 30 round stages kinda screw me with the 7 shot

 

The 7 shot revolvers don't fit well in some competitions. Steel Challenge probably ok. I used to shoot ICORE. 8 shots allowed in Open and Limited but only 6 in Classic with speed loaders.  I think they have a six shot division for moon clips too.  USPSA you need the 8 shot.

[Joe4d]

28 minutes ago, MHicks said:

 

The 7 shot revolvers don't fit well in some competitions. Steel Challenge probably ok. I used to shoot ICORE. 8 shots allowed in Open and Limited but only 6 in Classic with speed loaders.  I think they have a six shot division for moon clips too.  USPSA you need the 8 shot.

Pskys is an Icore MD.. Start of 3rd season and upcoming match is first time I saw a stage that 7 shot was a disadvantage. So shooting my 10 shot 617,,,  I will probably end up with an L frame 6 shot of some kind, as I just prefer the L frame over the N 627.. That or just keep shooting the 7 shot,,,, I mean now that I think about it, on a 30 round field course with multiple positions, i will be so slow the extra reload isnt going to matter

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, Joe4d said:

I am with you, I am done dealing with unreliable dots,,, always a problem,, I just hate gadgets.. Will be my last match with a dot, Irons work, just about always work.

haha, this seems like it should be true, but i have twice had irons fall off in a national match, and my wife had a front sight break in an area match.

[MHicks]

I've had 2 adjustable sights disintegrate on my 1911. One was at a level 2 match. When I went to bag my gun after the last stage on the first day of shooting I noticed the whole blade was missing. I thought, how could I have not noticed that. Went back to the stage, at the last shooting position you had to lean out around a barrel stack for the last target. There was the blade in the large gravel with small parts lost. I have non adjustables on them now.

[RJH]

I had an iron rear slide to one side during a stage once. When I saw it (and figured out why I started shooting so far to the right LOL) I simply slid it back to center and finished the stage, probably not doing that with a dot. 

 

Dots breaking is not a big deal, but is WAY more common than irons breaking and anybody that says otherwise I would have to call a liar LOL

 

Calling even decent dots unreliable (think Burris or vortex), is pretty disingenuous as well. Something like a trijicon is generally considerably better than those 

[IHAVEGAS]

Lost a front sight during a local (Tanfolgio), had an adjustable rear sight blade disappear during practice (Les Baer), broke off a thin front sight - probably let it touch wood framing of a port during recoil (2011). 

[IHAVEGAS]

18 hours ago, pskys2 said:

I keep shooting irons because I am too lazy, and unwilling to spend the time and money needed, to transition to a dot. Even with the usual eyesight issues of age I still shoot better with irons.  Kind of hard to teach this old dog, new tricks.

 

I'm on my 2nd or maybe 3rd week of the transition and am starting to feel confident that I can find the dot on the same day that I start hunting for it. Felt exactly like you do but my 68 year old eyes forced a change. 

 

The first week sucked. Now it is starting to be fun. 

[shred]

10 hours ago, RJH said:

I had an iron rear slide to one side during a stage once. When I saw it (and figured out why I started shooting so far to the right LOL) I simply slid it back to center and finished the stage, probably not doing that with a dot. 

Happened to me a couple years ago with a dovetail-mounted dot.  Saw it was way off to the side, re-centered it by hand and drove on.  Of course if the dovetail is square to the slide it doesn't really matter much where it is in the slot because there's nothing else on the gun needing to be lined up with it.

 

[Foxtrotx1]

On 4/27/2024 at 8:18 PM, ddc said:

 

And what guns might those be in your opinion?

9mm Carry optics guns, Limited Optics guns. If you want to keep production then give people carry optics sized mags. .40 is dead outside comp. 

Edited May 25 by Foxtrotx1

[Foxtrotx1]

On 5/19/2024 at 11:00 AM, Joe4d said:

all those growing divisions are growing because they are competitive with CHEAP FACTORY 9mm ammo that for years has been priced at a point reloading, or getting into reloading is not a barrier to entry,, or really even worth the hassle for some one not in to it.
All those dieing divisions use either stupid obsolete equipment rules,, (looking at you production 10 after the AWB sunset, this recent 15 was 2 little 2 late.) Or REQUIRE reloading with high priced spotty availability components or higher less available ammo..
iron sights are dieing because there STILL isnt an IS division where a reasonably available high capacity IS 9mm handgun can be run to full capacity.

Yep. USPSA is hanging onto .40 and outdated AWB limitations. 

[shred]

USPSA is nominally catering to the precepts of Jeff Cooper ("bigger-bullets = better") and ban-states that won't ever change unless SCOTUS makes them. 

 

If either of those is a good thing or not is up for debate. 

 

There are a number of CA/CO/CT/DC/HI/IL/MD/MA/NJ/RI/WA/NY shooters, at least some of whom don't want to break the law and we saw "I've got my grandfathered mags.." is not a good recipe for growth during the national AWB.