Limited optics ultimate build

[kewi]

Need opinions on what would be the ultimate limited optic build. My objective is to both have a flat shooting gun with a fast slide cycle in 9 minor. I would like it to shoot and feel as close to an open gun as much as possible. I know it’s impossible to achieve without a comp but i would like to ask for opinions on how to perhaps replicate an open gun’s behavior during shooting. Im thinking this configuration will somewhat achieve this?

1. 4.6” slide for faster slide cycle

2. tungsten sleeved barrel for lesser recoil

3. steel grip

4. Steel frame

5. butler cut (to compensate with the tungsten sleeve’s weight so it won’t be front heavy)

6. Would a 48-53 oz total weight without mag be optimal for a lim optic gun?

[jim vaughan]

Light slide, comp, barrel and grip will aid you to get the fastest cycle time.

 

[Maximis228]

Tungsten sleeve barrels are a bad idea. They reduce the life of the barrel itself while also increasing the chance of a catastrophic failure. Not to mention it severely limits who will build the gun (Only 2 builders I know offering this still). Sight blocks or Hybrid barrels can accomplish the same feel for significantly less hassle/cost. 

 

2011s mechanically cycle at .06 . Doesn't matter if you have a 3 inch slide or a 6 inch slide, You will not be able to outrun the gun. 

 

Ive got limited optics guns ranging from 56 oz Empty down to 34 OZs Empty. My grip needs to change slightly to have them track the same. Ultimately it doesn't matter. Just build what you like at the end of the day. 

 

No matter what you do, you wont get your LO gun to feel like an open gun. Im primarily an open shooter. The PF alone will never allow them to feel the same. 115 projectiles will make it feel "Snappier" but it wont even be close to 165+ PF Ammo feel. 

Edited January 5 by Maximis228

[OPENB]

25 minutes ago, jim vaughan said:

Light slide, comp, barrel and grip will aid you to get the fastest cycle time.

 

No comps allowed in LO. Trying to grasp how a lightened barrel and grip will aid in cycle time.

[whan]

Not the grip, but from what I understand the barrel weight affects cycle time, as in a browning style action the barrel needs to tilt upwards and unlock before the slide is able to move rearward. A heavier barrel unlocks slower and functionally also slows slide movement. 

[yigal]

sight block barrel it's the best  suit   for me.

[392heminut]

21 minutes ago, whan said:

Not the grip, but from what I understand the barrel weight affects cycle time, as in a browning style action the barrel needs to tilt upwards and unlock before the slide is able to move rearward.

Actually, the slide starts to move rearward FIRST and then the back of the barrel moves DOWN to unlock from the slide.

[kewi]

I’m not considering a sight block or a comp at the moment since comps are not allowed and ipsc rules might not allow sight blocks also when the division gets approved by them. That’s why i came into the conclusion of having a tungsten sleeved barrel instead.

[zzt]

If you want weight at the front, use a long, wide frame for your build.  Use a bull barrel.

 

I prefer a balanced gun.  I want it to balance on my weak hand index finger.

[kewi]

1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

2011s mechanically cycle at .06 . Doesn't matter if you have a 3 inch slide or a 6 inch slide, You will not be able to outrun the gun. 

Have you shot both a 5 inch slide with a shorter one say 4.6” how do they compare? I’m asking this because 4.6” seems to be all the rage right now and a lot of the custom builders are using this setup for limited optics..i’ve shot limited major before and find the 5” slides to be sluggish especially with a tungsten sleeve. And it got me wondering if it will also feel sluggish if its in 9 minor? I absolutely don’t have any experience shooting 2011’s in 9..

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, zzt said:

If you want weight at the front, use a long, wide frame for your build.  Use a bull barrel.

 

I prefer a balanced gun.  I want it to balance on my weak hand index finger.

 

Do you base the balance off the gun loaded or unloaded? Maybe partially loaded to split the difference. 

[Maximis228]

13 minutes ago, kewi said:

Have you shot both a 5 inch slide with a shorter one say 4.6” how do they compare? I’m asking this because 4.6” seems to be all the rage right now and a lot of the custom builders are using this setup for limited optics..i’ve shot limited major before and find the 5” slides to be sluggish especially with a tungsten sleeve. And it got me wondering if it will also feel sluggish if its in 9 minor? I absolutely don’t have any experience shooting 2011’s in 9..

 

Ive shot every length imaginable. Ive done a ton of R&D with builds over the last decade with Don at Venom Custom. 4.6 is the rage right now due to it being unique and different. In another 2-3 years the builds will be different again. 2011s tend to go in cycles. Right now, short and fat is in. In a few years long and light might be popular. 

 

Im currently building a 5 inch hybrid barrel LO gun with Venom. The gun will weigh close to 60 OZ empty with brass magwell, tungsten guiderod and XWF cheely frame. Im also a very big guy with bear claws for hands. The heavier gun doesnt slow down my transitions like it might for others. 

[kewi]

16 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

Im currently building a 5 inch hybrid barrel LO gun with Venom. The gun will weigh close to 60 OZ empty with brass

Wow! And i thought my limited gun was already very heavy. If i wanted a fast cycling gun you suggest i go with a lightened 4.6 slide right? How about the return to zero is it really that much better than a 5” lightened slide? I apologize for the noob questions i just want to have inputs on actual experiences on both setups before having my limited optic gun built so as to make it built right the first time around.

[kewi]

42 minutes ago, zzt said:

prefer a balanced gun.  I want it to balance on my weak hand index finger.

How do you achieve this? Steel grip with a 5 inch slide no butler cut? Or is it with a shorter slide..i have a limited gun with steel grip, 5” slide and tungsten sleeved barrel and it’s nose heavy.

[ltdmstr]

If you want a heavy gun, then go with XWF frame, steel grip, steel or brass magwell, bull barrel and tungsten guide rod.  Unlike a tungsten sleeved barrel, all are readily available and proven reliable.

[Maximis228]

51 minutes ago, kewi said:

Wow! And i thought my limited gun was already very heavy. If i wanted a fast cycling gun you suggest i go with a lightened 4.6 slide right? How about the return to zero is it really that much better than a 5” lightened slide? I apologize for the noob questions i just want to have inputs on actual experiences on both setups before having my limited optic gun built so as to make it built right the first time around.

Return to 0 is a combo of the gun, recoil spring, your load, and your grip. Any combo you can think of can have a perfect return to 0. 

 

I suggest shooting as many different set ups that you can. See what you like and then place an order with someone. Ask around at your local matches. Dudes love to show off their stuff and talk endlessly about why they built it the way they did. Take advantage of that knowledge and apply it to what you want to do.

 

No one can tell you the best set up. This is all personal preference. 

Edited January 5 by Maximis228

[zzt]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Do you base the balance off the gun loaded or unloaded? Maybe partially loaded to split the difference. 

 

20 rounds loaded.  That's midway between 10 for classifiers and 29 for the big stick.  I dry fire with 20 dummy rounds in a mag.  For the LO pistol I will eventually build, 10 rounds.

[zzt]

3 hours ago, kewi said:

How do you achieve this? Steel grip with a 5 inch slide no butler cut? Or is it with a shorter slide..i have a limited gun with steel grip, 5” slide and tungsten sleeved barrel and it’s nose heavy.

 

I remove weight where it doesn't matter until  it balances where I want it.  See below.

 

Or this.  My Limited gun converted to LO.  There is more slide lightening than is shown.  Basically, I removed as much weight from the slide as I added with the mount and dot.  The Al grips are off and it wears Lok thin G-10 grips now.  Weight was removed from the frame in the rear when I reprofiled the grip and undercut the trigger guard.

Edited January 5 by zzt

[RJH]

You're going to find that it doesn't matter and there is no optimal build. It's mostly going to come down to how much you practice.

 

And then somebody with a canik will probably show up and kick the crap out of you. 

 

So build what you enjoy the most and realize that it will have little to no effect on the outcome of matches

[kewi]

Thanks for the input guys. Appreciate it. Upon weighing on what you guys suggested. i think i’ll settle with a steel gripped, 4.6” non tungsten sleeved barrel for my lim optic build. I believe this will be heavy enough that the gun wont feel bouncy during recoil and still fast on transitions and follow up shots due to the shorter slide length..

[zzt]

10 hours ago, kewi said:

I believe this will be heavy enough that the gun wont feel bouncy during recoil and still fast on transitions and follow up shots due to the shorter slide length..

 

Try some other peoples guns first.  Transition speed and accuracy come from balance.  A muzzle heavy gun feels like you are swinging a log.  A muzzle light gun transitions a little more quickly, but accuracy suffers.  The muzzle is so light that any imperfection of you trigger pull moves the muzzle off target.  Tried all the ways you can think of.  Balanced is best for me.

 

4.6 vs. 5":  less muzzle rise with the 5.

[troupe]

As mention earlier in this post, nobody will out run a 2011, period !  The balance of the pistol is critical. Transitions can be as good with a heavy gun just as good as a light pistol. Travis Tomasie could prove it the best, but he does have some big guns on him.  Sorry Travis.  

 

Tommy Roupe

[CHA-LEE]

Pick one option below.... You can't have both and it be 100% Optimized. Everyone leans towards the "HEAVY WEIGHT" setups because they feel soft shooting but actually suck if you want to maximize on the clock stage performance. This is going to hurt peoples feelings because I just described their gun as "Sucky". Before people get their knickers in a twist, Put in some live fire range testing on both setups and measure actual On Target hit quality and Shot/Transition Splits. Spoiler Alert, High Performance setups are usually not super "Soft" shooting or "Heavy".

 

1 - Do you want a High Performance setup (Light Weight) - Shot to Shot the whole gun settles fast but also has a harsher felt recoil which you actually have to grip HARD. The gun is also easier to transition between targets because its less mass to sling around.

 

2 - Do you want a Super Soft Shooting setup (Heavy Weight) - Felt recoil is super soft but transitions will suffer due to excessive weight. There will be muzzle bounce when the slide snaps forward because displaced mass will return.

[CHA-LEE]

Ultimate Build = No Custom Build. Buy an already optimized setup from a known good vendor/builder and shoot the crap out of it until it wears out or breaks. Throw it away and repeat.

[kewi]

I’ve tested both similar setups but with an open gun. One has a polymer grip which i’ll refer to as the (high performance) setup and the other one with a steel grip (soft shooting) setup..i would say i love the lighter setup felt like i was faster with it but man, the metal grip really does settle the dot better..Now i’m looking for a setup thats an “in-between” the two you posted..4.6” , full dust cover, steel grip w/ al mainspring and al magwell maybe?

 

CHA-LEE If you were to have a lim optic gun what features would you want to have?