Staccato versus prodigy

[ltdmstr]

23 minutes ago, tt350z said:

That’s like saying titanium engine valves is a waste of money and steel valves are better for the above reasons.

 

Don’t like it or agree with the marketing. Don’t buy it.

 

Engine valves are entirely different application and titanium offers advantages in terms of weight and metallurgy.  Not sure how that applies to a 1911/2011 strut, which you want to be rigid, not flexible.  And despite the marketing, not even the greatest shooter in the world can tell the difference in a couple thousandths of a second difference in lock time, assuming that's even the case.  In fact, the flex in the part probably makes for a longer lock time than a more rigid part.  Buy what you want, but just because something is titanium doesn't mean it's better for a particular application.

[tt350z]

2 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Engine valves are entirely different application and titanium offers advantages in terms of weight and metallurgy.  Not sure how that applies to a 1911/2011 strut, which you want to be rigid, not flexible.  And despite the marketing, not even the greatest shooter in the world can tell the difference in a couple thousandths of a second difference in lock time, assuming that's even the case.  In fact, the flex in the part probably makes for a longer lock time than a more rigid part.  Buy what you want, but just because something is titanium doesn't mean it's better for a particular application.

You really think a titanium strut is gonna flex so much from from a #17 spring thats it’s gonna be a detriment?

 

Meanwhile titanium valves have #600 springs pushing on it, with a rocker scrubbing the valve tip exerting a side load on the guide isn’t a big deal? Better start preaching to everyone with ti connecting rods is losing performance over steel connecting rids because of the flex.

 

A ti strut is what, $6 more than a steel strut. I’m sure more money is wasted in this sport on dumber things that.

[Hammerman]

All I know is that EGW sells titanium struts and mainspring housing caps, so they must be good.  That's what I use in all of my builds.  Who know if it does anything?

[donnyglock]

16 hours ago, tt350z said:

You really think a titanium strut is gonna flex so much from from a #17 spring thats it’s gonna be a detriment?

 

Meanwhile titanium valves have #600 springs pushing on it, with a rocker scrubbing the valve tip exerting a side load on the guide isn’t a big deal? Better start preaching to everyone with ti connecting rods is losing performance over steel connecting rids because of the flex.

 

A ti strut is what, $6 more than a steel strut. I’m sure more money is wasted in this sport on dumber things that.

Titanium struts are a gimmick like ltdmstr said. I’ve seen more break and to be honest there’s zero difference any shooter would notice. You’re comparison to titanium valves has absolutely nothing to to with a hammer strut. 
 I’ll never put another titanium strut in the guns I build. 

[MikeBurgess]

I get that they are unnecessary, and if Donnyglock says they break more that's enough for me.  But I would love for someone to explain how a flexible strut would negatively affect hammer velocity?

Most seem to use an explanation that only works if we assume the strut is unloaded prior to the sear being released but that is not the case 

[donnyglock]

4 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I get that they are unnecessary, and if Donnyglock says they break more that's enough for me.  But I would love for someone to explain how a flexible strut would negatively affect hammer velocity?

Most seem to use an explanation that only works if we assume the strut is unloaded prior to the sear being released but that is not the case 

Mike,

 I really don’t know if they flex much at all. What I will say is EGW’s shape at the bottom of the strut is far less than ideal. It tends to get out of the cup at the top of the plunger and bind on the sides. Causing stress and ultimately a good possibility of failure. Extreme and others have a far better shape. Yes you can reshape it…etc but why bother with the extra time. Just buy one ready to go. 
 I’ve never had a guy out running his gun and a titanium strut was the answer. Lol. 

[ddc]

1 hour ago, donnyglock said:

Mike,

 I really don’t know if they flex much at all. What I will say is EGW’s shape at the bottom of the strut is far less than ideal. It tends to get out of the cup at the top of the plunger and bind on the sides. Causing stress and ultimately a good possibility of failure. Extreme and others have a far better shape. Yes you can reshape it…etc but why bother with the extra time. Just buy one ready to go. 
 I’ve never had a guy out running his gun and a titanium strut was the answer. Lol. 

 

Is it the titanium strut in particular that has an issue or is it EGW's struts in general, steel included?

[donnyglock]

14 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

Is it the titanium strut in particular that has an issue or is it EGW's struts in general, steel included?

They are all shaped the same. It seems the titanium fails more often due to the type of bind and stress. I don’t think I’ve personally seen a steel one break. 

[dmshozer1]

On 8/15/2023 at 10:37 AM, tt350z said:

Lighter than steel so faster lock time

Titanium is very light compared to steel.

Problem is that it is very soft and will wear out way before steel does.

Not worth it in my opinion.

[MikeBurgess]

20 hours ago, donnyglock said:

Mike,

 I really don’t know if they flex much at all. What I will say is EGW’s shape at the bottom of the strut is far less than ideal. It tends to get out of the cup at the top of the plunger and bind on the sides. Causing stress and ultimately a good possibility of failure. Extreme and others have a far better shape. Yes you can reshape it…etc but why bother with the extra time. Just buy one ready to go. 
 I’ve never had a guy out running his gun and a titanium strut was the answer. Lol. 

I agree the shape of the EGW one is horrible, I haven't been building long enough to see one fail but I like to learn from others that have. 

 

My gripe was those saying they flex and that eats main spring energy, but when you stack springs the second spring doesn't eat the frist springs energy they both release their stored energy together, every explanation I have seen is someone explaining it as if the strut was un-stressed prior to the the sear releasing, and that drives me nuts.

[42ATK]

What about the DWX to add to this

[ddc]

4 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I agree the shape of the EGW one is horrible, I haven't been building long enough to see one fail but I like to learn from others that have. 

 

So I'm just getting into 2011's after years of sitting on the sidelines so I don't know squat...

 

But my understanding was that EGW was one of the suppliers of known quality parts.

 

Are you guys saying they don't know what they're doing as far as struts are concerned? 

I guess I find that rather curious...

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

 

So I'm just getting into 2011's after years of sitting on the sidelines so I don't know squat...

 

But my understanding was that EGW was one of the suppliers of known quality parts.

 

Are you guys saying they don't know what they're doing as far as struts are concerned? 

I guess I find that rather curious...

The tip of the titanium ones I have used is not shaped very well to fit the dimple in the top of the mainspring cap, likely they assume the smith will hand file it to a shape they are happy with, but if its not a real world performance enhancement the time spent doing it is wasted. 

[RedDotsOnly]

On 8/17/2023 at 12:49 PM, 42ATK said:

What about the DWX to add to this

Congrats on your 50+ comments

 

[42ATK]

51 minutes ago, RedDotsOnly said:

Congrats on your 50+ comments

 

Thank you I’ve accomplished many things

[Douglee25]

I smirked reading this thread... Oh how a little time changes things.  Not even a full year ago people s#!t on the prodigy like it was the worst gun ever.  Now people are arguing it's a better buy than the Stacatto.  I'm glad to hear they got the problems ironed out. I always liked how the guns felt in my hand. 

[OPENB]

6 hours ago, Douglee25 said:

I smirked reading this thread... Oh how a little time changes things.  Not even a full year ago people s#!t on the prodigy like it was the worst gun ever.  Now people are arguing it's a better buy than the Stacatto.  I'm glad to hear they got the problems ironed out. I always liked how the guns felt in my hand. 

Right? About when STI became Staccato, semi-custom shooters were crapping on them for build quality. Now Staccato shooters have a gun of their own to look down on. 

[longjoee]

On 8/12/2023 at 2:35 PM, ltdmstr said:

 

Maybe not for the casual user.  But a production gun with MIM and cast parts is never going to hold up as long as a custom gun with all high quality parts machined from bar stock with proper metallurgy, heat treat, etc. and fit properly.  Like most everything else in life, you get what you pay for.

Well said, Pay to Play... Shoot or tinker...

[ColoradoNick]

Has anyone here put more than 25k through a prodigy yet?

[Douglee25]

19 hours ago, longjoee said:

Well said, Pay to Play... Shoot or tinker...

And probably 90% of the shooters could never tell the difference, let alone use their guns to wear the MIM parts out. 

[ltdmstr]

27 minutes ago, Douglee25 said:

And probably 90% of the shooters could never tell the difference, let alone use their guns to wear the MIM parts out. 

 

Maybe not your average shooter who goes through a couple boxes of ammo a year.  Or the YouTube experts.  But around these parts, there are plenty.

[Racinready300ex]

50 minutes ago, Douglee25 said:

And probably 90% of the shooters could never tell the difference, let alone use their guns to wear the MIM parts out. 

 

There are a lot of high round count shooters on this forum. I'm a pretty low round shooter in this game, I've still broken one mim hammer. I'd guess it survived 25k rounds on a open gun. No clue the volume of dryfire, as I'm a pretty heavy dryfire guy. 

 

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Douglee25 said:

And probably 90% of the shooters could never tell the difference, let alone use their guns to wear the MIM parts out. 

 

90% of shooters in general? You are probably right.

 

90% of the serious USPSA competitors? Maybe...

 

But there are plenty of shooters on this forum for whom 25k is a slow year.

[808matt]

On 8/22/2023 at 10:45 AM, Douglee25 said:

I smirked reading this thread... Oh how a little time changes things.  Not even a full year ago people s#!t on the prodigy like it was the worst gun ever.  Now people are arguing it's a better buy than the Stacatto.  I'm glad to hear they got the problems ironed out. I always liked how the guns felt in my hand. 

 

I just think it’s great that there are more affordable 2011/double stack 1911 pattern options now.  I wasn’t in love with how the Prodigy grip felt in my hand, but that’s just me. 

[RJH]

I don't think anybody is saying The prodigy is better than the staccato. I think we consensus might be, if you get one that works, and is accurate you're not giving up anything to a staccato, as far as hit Factor goes. 

 

 

Kind of like you got an accurate and reliable Rock Island 1911, it's not going to keep you from beating an infinity 1911. Though, I don't think anybody is going to try to tell you the Rock Island is as good as the infinity.

 

 

And I'm a guy who has shot Rock islands and beat Infinitys, and shot prodigies and beat higher end 2011s. But I'm not good, which really shows you can't buy performance