No steel plates at Level III matches?

[Thomas H]

Quoted from the ChangeLog for rules posted from the BoD meeting (https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20230128 CompRules-March2023 Change Log-final.pdf) :

 

"4.3.1.4 – Original rule: Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix B3),
however, metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one
cardboard target or popper must be included in each course of fire.

 

Updated rule: Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix B3) in Level I

and II matches only, however, metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course

of fire. At least one authorized cardboard target or Popper must be included in each

course of fire."

 

(Bold emphasis added by me.)

 

This seems to mean that you can't use plates at L3 matches any more.  I realize they weren't exactly in high use, but...this seems an odd addition out of nowhere. 

 

Were there a significant number of issues with plates at L3 matches lately, sufficient for a rule change no longer allowing them?

 

Or am I mis-reading this?

Edited February 18, 2023 by Thomas H

[fcernese]

I took it to read that you can't have various sizes of metal plates at a level III, meaning they all had to be the same size. 

[MikeyScuba]

I read it as you can’t have an all steel stage at a major.

[shred]

No plates in L3+ at all.

 

I send the board feedback when the proposals came up.  I heard back from Troy and A8.  A8 said most RM's already wouldn't approve plates for majors since they were too problematic and USPSA couldn't specify plate designs (yet somehow they manage to specify poppers)

 

I pointed out that the World Shoot managed to have dozens of plates in a thousand-shooter match with no problems, and they are more difficult targets that can be set more places and Troy said what the WS did was too much work for most clubs (they were pretty awesome, but a lot of work).

 

I still think allowing them if they are good enough is a better answer, but I guess the BOD thought different, so steel plates are not approved targets for L3 and up USPSA matches anymore, at all. 

 

Take note if you plan to shoot some IPSC to practice on them at least a little.

 

[terrydoc]

The biggest issue we have in Australia (IPSC) with plates is the method of set up and sizes at different clubs, they must be set up so they cannot turn side on but must fall when shot. Sizes are in the rules but clubs sometimes just use what they have and then when the stages get inspected prior to the match, the sh*t hits the fan as they don't have enough of the required size.  Unfortunately it's sometimes the clubs that actually run L3 matches every year that are at fault.

[Joe4d]

Not the plates, its the stands, Texas plate racks, polish racks etc screw up so much I have NEVER seen a match with them scored IAW the rules and this includes Nationals,,,
Same with individual plates,,, either they dont fall when hit, or fall when stand is hit.. each time that is a reshoot, but if the correct reshoots are always given matches would never end..  Good call ban em.. However I dont agree with ehe level thing,,, If they are bad why allow them in level 1 and 2 ? If they are ok why ban in 3 ?
Just more idiocy from NROI and the BOD

 

[motosapiens]

27 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Not the plates, its the stands, Texas plate racks, polish racks etc screw up so much I have NEVER seen a match with them scored IAW the rules and this includes Nationals,,,
Same with individual plates,,, either they dont fall when hit, or fall when stand is hit.. each time that is a reshoot, but if the correct reshoots are always given matches would never end..  Good call ban em.. However I dont agree with ehe level thing,,, If they are bad why allow them in level 1 and 2 ? If they are ok why ban in 3 ?
Just more idiocy from NROI and the BOD

 

many clubs have spent good money on polish plate racks or texas stars, and people like shooting them. People tend not to care as much if a local match runs a few minutes late, but when an area match wastes an extra few minutes on each squad, it adds up fast. If they were banned at L1 matches, I suspect many clubs might just stop hosting sanctioned uspsa matches, and instead host some kind of 'action pistol' match that uses uspsa rules except for steel plates, and then shooters wouldn't get classifier scores, and uspsa wouldn't get the activity fees, so everyone would lose.

[shred]

Easy way to set steel plates is with the stand behind a separate steel plate.  That's what the World Shoot did.  It works well.  No stand hits knock the plate off.  Lots of clubs have steel challenge gongs doing nothing around USPSA match time.

 

 

[Schutzenmeister]

Plates have been on the unofficial "no-fly" list for L3 matches for years.  It appears all they have done is to formalize it and put it in the rules.

[Joe4d]

Shot a match at blackwater in a covered side berm bay.. One stage had steel No shoots poppers  Shortly behind small shoot poppers,  Had 3 or 4 of them set up like that.  No shoots were set so they wouldnt fall IIRC,,  Best part of all was the very loud, and deeper obvious sound they made when hit so every one knew you nailed a no shoot.
ding ding BONG !!! 

[waktasz]

Generally RMs hate them because they can't be calibrated and can lead to reshoots. Edge hits are reshoots, etc. It seems like they were already de facto "banned" by RMs not allowing them to be used in those matches, now it's just codified in the rules. 

[Bakerjd]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:29 PM, MikeyScuba said:

I read it as you can’t have an all steel stage at a major.

You can have all steel, just has to be poppers. Already couldn't do just plates. 

[Thomas H]

Matches I've worked where we had plates on stages, we put steel in front of the stands.  Never had any problems.  Seems odd that we'd specifically add a rule saying they couldn't be used when another section of the rules literally specifies what plates are allowed to be used as targets in matches.

 

In other words, problems with plates seem to be a function of setup issues (rather similar to setup issues with other steel targets) as opposed to target issues.  As such, making a rule disallowing them (instead of helping people set them up properly) doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Example:  When we set up a major match, we put plywood flats down underneath the steel poppers we use, so that the popper is always on a flat surface, and can't alter that surface by falling on it repeatedly.  Similarly, we both make sure all adjustment bolts/nuts are locked in place, and then check them between squads.  Doing this, we almost never have popper issues, and if a calibration is needed, it is invariably because someone has a glancing edge hit, and the popper falls due to proper calibration when checked.

 

Similarly, when we use plates, we put steel (as someone has pointed out, SC rectangles work really well for this) in front of the stands so that only the plate itself can be hit, and our plates have metal sections that hang over the stand so that when the plate is hit, it can only fall instead of rotate.  Because of that, we haven't had range equipment malfunction problems with those, either.

 

I would think that instead of disallowing a target, we'd instead promulgate how to reduce issues with said targets. 

 

...because I agree with what someone said earlier, that plates make good targets that are different from the other targets available.

[waktasz]

You can still hit them on edge or spin them on the stand so they don't fall. Automatic reshoot in both cases

 

[JayWord]

A partial and not in any way complete list of plate fails I have seen.

Bouncing plate racks, plate hit, bounces back up-Reshoot.

Full hit at top of plate in plate rack-Did not fall-Reshoot

Texas Star: Lollipop holders, illegal but commonly seen.

Texas Star: Arm hit plate falls-Reshoot

Texas Star: Plate hit but get hung up on other holder does not completely fall-Reshoot

Texas Star: Plate hit and takes next plate off-Reshoot

Plates on stands-Plate spins-Reshoot

Do I have to go on?

I was told the plates at world shoot were custom made and may have been held on via magnets also. That might not be true, but in reality I have seen many plate fails including the issues with the holder slowly sinking into the ground (Florida Open) which does not present the same view to every shooter in a long match.

 

My suggestion was no plates at anything but Level 1 matches. I know some clubs have significant money tied up in them. They can be fun at Level 1 matches and are somewhat cheaper than good poppers. Take up less space also.  No go at the review stage.

 

RM Comment: Plates are great for serving lunch, not much else.

 

Jay

 

[Joe4d]

Plate rack fails I have seen AT NATIONALS
Texas star... Higher plate hit shot, falls knocks off 2 others,, no reshoot, 
Texas Star,, arms hit, plate falls,,, no reshoot.
Texas Star, Plate hit,, partially dislodges, doesnt fall, RO doesnt stop, shooter shoots if off,,, No reshoot. This was just the squad I was on.
As mentioned earlier. Texas Stars are fun. But I dont EVER recall an entire squad being scored correctly on the things.
My issue with this ruling though is like I stated earlier,,, Either plates are ok or they are not.
This OK at LV1 and 2,, but not at 3 is some kinda nonsense. Rules should be the rules.
LV1 exceptions have always been about ways to make things easier for set up at clubs that may not have the resources .. That I can agree with.. 

 

[shred]

That was my point.  Its fine to not-approve problematic designs but banning them at L3s basically means nobody is going to go to the effort to make good plates.  The very first swingers and drop-turners and max traps and clamshells weren't all that great either, but they got better.

 

The World Shoot plates, IIRC were magnetic holders, with separate steel hard cover in front of them so stand hits wouldn't knock them off.   Not very high-tech, and probably cheaper than a basic popper.  They are a more difficult target with more placement options as well so it seems dumb to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

USPSA already has "approved" ammo and targets and whatnot.  Should not be hard to make a list of 'approved' plate designs too, but I guess it was too much work.

[Joe4d]

10 minutes ago, shred said:

That was my point.  Its fine to not-approve problematic designs but banning them at L3s basically means nobody is going to go to the effort to make good plates.  The very first swingers and drop-turners and max traps and clamshells weren't all that great either, but they got better.

 

The World Shoot plates, IIRC were magnetic holders, with separate steel hard cover in front of them so stand hits wouldn't knock them off.   Not very high-tech, and probably cheaper than a basic popper.  They are a more difficult target with more placement options as well so it seems dumb to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

USPSA already has "approved" ammo and targets and whatnot.  Should not be hard to make a list of 'approved' plate designs too, but I guess it was too much work.

Yep,, or a slight change to the rules,,, and not require them to fall to score... Steel Challenge seems to do just fine that way.
Kinda surprised though,  "Its just a Level 1" excuse brings about much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, but paying membership tolerates the same thing from NROI/BOD

 

[RJH]

Maybe the best answer for plates at big matches is hinged plates and allow calibration. We use hinged ones at three gun and I don't remember seeing any issues there. Of course I could be misremembering

[Joe4d]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

Maybe the best answer for plates at big matches is hinged plates and allow calibration. We use hinged ones at three gun and I don't remember seeing any issues there. Of course I could be misremembering

Considering power factor no longer matters , why not just do away with calibration ? Its a hold over from pre chrono days and really a jacked system any ways. Guy hits it,,, it ALMOST falls to the point a gnat could fart on it to knock it over,,, Guy comes over shoots it again and surprise surprise it falls.
Paint after each shooter, hit scores

[RJH]

35 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Considering power factor no longer matters , why not just do away with calibration ? Its a hold over from pre chrono days and really a jacked system any ways. Guy hits it,,, it ALMOST falls to the point a gnat could fart on it to knock it over,,, Guy comes over shoots it again and surprise surprise it falls.
Paint after each shooter, hit scores

Well, power factor does still matter so I don't know why you would go to Hits count

[Joe4d]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

Well, power factor does still matter so I don't know why you would go to Hits count

well lets see.  Any hit knocks a plate over,, or its a reshoot. PF dont matter.
SS and revolver,,, give out of proportion round count advantage to minor... PF dont mater.
Production... all minor   PF dont matter.
CO,,, all minor PF dont matter.
OPen still matters, but not alot of shooters.
Limited ? Participation way down, and even alot of those are shooting minor.... PF barely matters.
New proposed division that will probably kill Open , and put another dent in Limited... Most likely will be minor... PF dont matter.
All the calibration ruses set around low barely minor... PF dont matter.

So  in what part of USPSA does power factor matter ?

 

[Thomas H]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:38 AM, waktasz said:

You can still hit them on edge or spin them on the stand so they don't fall. Automatic reshoot in both cases

 

 

If that is a reply to my comments about what I've seen done to make plates non-problematic---as I said, the plates had a lip on the base so that they can't spin.  And it is a plate---edge hits will make it fall over.  It isn't like it takes much. (Unless you meant "hitting them edge-on" which is definitely a setup issue, not a plate issue.  If someone sets up a plate so people can even SEE it edge-on, the setup person is doing it wrong.)

 

4 hours ago, JayWord said:

A partial and not in any way complete list of plate fails I have seen.

Bouncing plate racks, plate hit, bounces back up-Reshoot.

Full hit at top of plate in plate rack-Did not fall-Reshoot

Texas Star: Lollipop holders, illegal but commonly seen.

Texas Star: Arm hit plate falls-Reshoot

Texas Star: Plate hit but get hung up on other holder does not completely fall-Reshoot

Texas Star: Plate hit and takes next plate off-Reshoot

Plates on stands-Plate spins-Reshoot

Do I have to go on?

I was told the plates at world shoot were custom made and may have been held on via magnets also. That might not be true, but in reality I have seen many plate fails including the issues with the holder slowly sinking into the ground (Florida Open) which does not present the same view to every shooter in a long match.

 

My suggestion was no plates at anything but Level 1 matches. I know some clubs have significant money tied up in them. They can be fun at Level 1 matches and are somewhat cheaper than good poppers. Take up less space also.  No go at the review stage.

 

RM Comment: Plates are great for serving lunch, not much else.

 

Jay

 

 

Of that list, the first six aren't about plates, they were about plate-racks and Texas Stars.  The ONLY thing on that list regarding plates on stands is that if the plate spins, it is a reshoot.

 

And again, I've already spoken about it.   It isn't hard to weld a lip onto the base of the plate, so that literally the plate can't spin.

 

So that entire list isn't actually saying anything against plates in matches at all.   It is against Texas Stars and plate racks, (which is actually pretty funny since there are competitions that use plate racks all over the place), but against plates----not really.  Again, it is literally a setup issue for plates.

 

It seems odd to me that plates are okay at Level II matches, but are somehow insufficiently reliable at Level III matches.  Especially since I have yet to see any problem listed with plates that wasn't a setup problem.  (Note:  I'm not ignoring how people have said that some clubs don't set them up properly---my comment there is that the solution isn't to outlaw plates, but instead educate people to set them up correctly.)

 

 

 

 

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

well lets see.  Any hit knocks a plate over,, or its a reshoot. PF dont matter.

 

That's why I said calibration so all of a sudden power factor matters. The rest of your points are basically pointless. So I'm not sure I want to waste my time, but I'm bored so what the heck

14 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

 

SS and revolver,,, give out of proportion round count

advantage to minor... PF dont mater. 

 

That's not an out of proportion round count advantage to minor, in fact it's the only place or major minor is interesting in USPSA

14 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Production... all minor   PF dont matter. 
CO,,, all minor PF dont matter. 

Don't make minor out at match and see how that works out

14 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

OPen still matters, but not alot of shooters. 
Limited ? Participation way down, and even alot of those are shooting minor.... PF barely matters.
New proposed division that will probably kill Open , and put another dent in Limited... Most likely will be minor... PF dont matter.
All the calibration ruses set around low barely minor... PF dont matter.

So  in what part of USPSA does power factor matter ?

 

 

Basically it matters in scoring on targets and matters in calibration on steel which turns out to be a couple of pretty big deals.  

 

Now if you're just saying that it doesn't matter because most people in x division shoot the same power factor, that's a little true but it still matters. It's just not a differentiator between competitors if they're using the same power factor, and it never has been. So if you're going to say power factor doesn't matter now, you would just have to acknowledge that it has actually never mattered

[shred]

Getting "Popper F..orked" was not a thing when everyone shot Major and we had much crappier steel.  It's almost like the OG wanted it that way.

 

Now everyone demands poppers that fall to the slightest whiff of a bullet going by and will scream to the interwebs when they edge hit one low and it doesn't fall.