No steel plates at Level III matches?

[Joe4d]

19 hours ago, RJH said:

 

That's why I said calibration so all of a sudden power factor matters. The rest of your points are basically pointless. So I'm not sure I want to waste my time, but I'm bored so what the heck

 

That's not an out of proportion round count advantage to minor, in fact it's the only place or major minor is interesting in USPSA

Don't make minor out at match and see how that works out

 

Basically it matters in scoring on targets and matters in calibration on steel which turns out to be a couple of pretty big deals.  

 

Now if you're just saying that it doesn't matter because most people in x division shoot the same power factor, that's a little true but it still matters. It's just not a differentiator between competitors if they're using the same power factor, and it never has been. So if you're going to say power factor doesn't matter now, you would just have to acknowledge that it has actually never mattered

It doesnt matter overall in the game,, steel is calibrated  at mousefart level,  most people are shooting and new division is minor  only scoring,  a couple divisions  give too much of a roundcount advantage to minor most in those divisions shoot minor. It only matters in two dieing divisions that the BOD is trying to kill off.
back when Limited (standard) and Open were the major divisions and steel was used to proof things,, it mattered. 
As steel must drop at mousefart level why even keep the "must fall" part of the rule ? Seems to me it accomplishes nothing but more reshoots .

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

It doesnt matter overall in the game,, steel is calibrated  at mousefart level,  most people are shooting and new division is minor  only scoring,  a couple divisions  give too much of a roundcount advantage to minor most in those divisions shoot minor. It only matters in two dieing divisions that the BOD is trying to kill off.
back when Limited (standard) and Open were the major divisions and steel was used to proof things,, it mattered. 
As steel must drop at mousefart level why even keep the "must fall" part of the rule ? Seems to me it accomplishes nothing but more reshoots .

 

Steel has always had to fall at 120 pf. Or at least for the last 20 years 

[BritinUSA]

If USPSA/IPSC would finally move away from the concept that steel should be used to confirm power factor then the construction of a consistently reliable steel plate/popper could accomplished. 
 

Instead we are left with an archaic concept that was introduced when chronographs were rare and expensive.

 

I think that all steel should be constructed and set so that they fall with a .22 shot from the furthest point in a course of fire. This would require changes to the design/construction of the poppers and (to a lesser extent) plates. 
 

I don't understand why the org is tied to a popper design that was introduced when PF was 175 and still think it's the best solution, especially now that the majority of competitors are shooting 125-135, and 165.
 

 

 

[shred]

Ugh, poppers set that light would blow over all the time.  They can't be made out of much thinner material or they'd be destroyed rapidly.

 

Probably got something to do with Rule 4.3.1.1 USPSA and IPSC Poppers [...] are approved targets designed to recognize power [...]

 

Wasn't very long ago poppers were calibrated not-to-fall with minor hits below the calibration zone, and lots of the old guard liked it that way (see: calibration foot, mini popper.  Brian's got a Hate rant about them).

 

[BritinUSA]

Agreed, with the current design of poppers it would be hard to do. Which is why they need a redesign.

 

Making a Plate to those specifications would be a lot easier, they are less prone to wind and there are other design changes that could further alleviate the issue.

 

Yes, 4.3.1.1 is the root of the problem. We have two radically different power factors. Many years ago participation was heavily weighted toward 175, now 125-130 is the predominant power factor, yet we retain the same core design of the steel targets. 

[shred]

Yeah, the old time hardmen that invented IPSC thought 175 PF was what anyone 'Serious' shot.  125 was for ladies, limp-wristers, 38 Specials and Browning Hi Powers.  The fact most people are lazy and want to shoot cheap easy to shoot ammo and want the world to cater to their whims would not surprise them any.

 

Cooper used to deride the 'rooney guns', but didn't deride 124 gr 9mm bullets at 1420 fps.

[Brooke]

This discussion is why the internet sucks. There is always somebody who objects to anything. 

[IL-SIG]

On 2/25/2023 at 1:04 PM, RJH said:

 

Steel has always had to fall at 120 pf. Or at least for the last 20 years 

The current rule is that calibration ammo “should achieve a power factor between 115 and 125”. Thus, calibration ammo is sub-minor. As long as the popper is set and calibrated properly, nobody with at least 125PF ammo should have a problem. 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, IL-SIG said:

The current rule is that calibration ammo “should achieve a power factor between 115 and 125”. Thus, calibration ammo is sub-minor. As long as the popper is set and calibrated properly, nobody with at least 125PF ammo should have a problem. 

 

Was the old rule calibration ammo at 120? That's what I was thinking it was, but maybe it has been 115-125 for the last 20 years. Either way hasn't changed to "mousefart" level in that time, which is what I was getting at lol

[BritinUSA]

I think it's 120-125 for IPSC. 

[terrydoc]

98% of poppers in Australia are forward falling these days, that has stopped the wind causing reshoots for light set poppers.

[shred]

14 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Was the old rule calibration ammo at 120? That's what I was thinking it was, but maybe it has been 115-125 for the last 20 years. Either way hasn't changed to "mousefart" level in that time, which is what I was getting at lol

Calibration ammo had to be 125 PF +/- 5% in the 2004 rulebook (which was combined USPSA & IPSC rules, so both)

[George Jones]

The thread drift to popper calibration is irrelevant to the original subject of plates.  The rules used to specify factory ammo for calibration which worked against the shooter during a challenge since that would result in 130+ PF in most guns.  The rules were changed to allow reloads and the calibration gun/ammo PF was lowered to 115-125.

As to plates - the problem is the number of reshoots which result due to all the issues mentioned earlier.  But unmentioned is another common problem: incorrect/inconsistent officiating.  ROs not seeing or ignoring malfunctions.  That is very problematic at a major match.  We teach the rules, but we can't teach experience.

Sometimes, it's best to avoid the problems altogether for the greater good of the match.

[Sarge]

I find a few things fascinating.

 1. As of this morning I can’t find any of this on USPSA website. Seeing as how it becomes effective today and many matches are starting up in the next few days I would have thought this would be updated there by now.

 2. Everybody seems fixated on a few things that really aren’t that big a deal in my opinion. The truth is there are a ton of changes that will affect the game that every MD and RO need to be aware of. There are some fairly radical changes that need to be absorbed and implemented as of right now.

[Joe4d]

Why have a calibration at all ?  Simply get rid of the must fall to score thing..
Seems to work fine in steel challenge.
I mean think about it,, must fall to score,,, but if it doesnt fall its a reshoot. so no real penalty if it doesnt fall. 
I agree with George. Very common for plates not to be scored IAW existing rules. 
I think the Level 3 thing is dumb though. They are OK targets or they arenot OK targets.  Level 1 exemptions were to help  clubs with less resources take a few shortcuts in stage construction.  This new ruling does not do that.
Just a level 1,,, used to incite hissy fits.. Guess it will become the new norm.

 

[waktasz]

DVC bro

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

DVC bro

Is that to me ? Think we already established Major PF power doesnt matter..  and in ref to plates, doesnt matter at all. , its power, unless you don't have enough and then you get to try again. 
To me it would make more sense if the rule was,, must fall to score,, and if it dont fall when hit,, sucks for you better keep shooting. 
At least things like Texas stars do test accuracy and speed. Although as mention they arnt reliable enough not to bog a match down if scored correctly.