You got your wish

[happygunner77]

Not a fan of it. Emailed my AD to keep it at 10 and leave it as is. 

[RJH]

If you want more than five people to be in production, productions going to have to change a little bit. I don't know if this is the right answer or not, but it might get me to shoot production occasionally which I never do now. But then again it might not

[happygunner77]

I know they're doing a defibrillator on it. But I guess that's what they're going for. 

Too bad, mag change skills is very underrated. But I guess, not having that skill also magnifies their lack of shooting skills, like me. LOL. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by happygunner77

[Johnny_Chimpo]

27 minutes ago, happygunner77 said:

I know they're doing a defibrillator on it. But I guess that's what they're going for. 

Too bad, mag change skills is very underrated. But I guess, not having that skill also magnifies their lack of shooting skills, like me. LOL. 

 

If you like to shoot production but don't want to do anything to make it more palatable to others, do you really like production?

 

IDK what it's like in other parts of the country, but here in the majority of area 5 it's virtually dead.

[happygunner77]

6 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

If you like to shoot production but don't want to do anything to make it more palatable to others, do you really like production?

 

IDK what it's like in other parts of the country, but here in the majority of area 5 it's virtually dead.

 

I only shoot it primarily and never cared how many shot it. It's dead because of dots and hi cap mag or class B and above shooters but class C mag changer. L10 is still alive but no, let's mess with production. 

 

Mag change is an art form. 

[rowdyb]

It shocked me to read the review of 2022 activity numbers. I started uspsa when Prod was ascending and saw it at its height. To see it be sooooo low now in percent of activity is sad.

 

Of the mag proposals listed I like either 140 like CO or doesn't matter if it fits the box.

[MikeRussell]

The change to Prod is nothing surprising. At the members meeting it was brought up to change it to 15rnds to comply with IPSC... which a lot of people agreed with, but then Jake mentioned they'd been talking about trying a "Carry Irons" approach to Prod to breathe some life into it as well as be a more accurate entry division for new members. 

 

I guess there have been enough people vying for Limited Optics, because at all of the members meetings at Nats, nobody seemed in favor of it (members, not board).

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, MikeRussell said:

The change to Prod is nothing surprising. At the members meeting it was brought up to change it to 15rnds to comply with IPSC... which a lot of people agreed with, but then Jake mentioned they'd been talking about trying a "Carry Irons" approach to Prod to breathe some life into it as well as be a more accurate entry division for new members. 

 

I guess there have been enough people vying for Limited Optics, because at all of the members meetings at Nats, nobody seemed in favor of it (members, not board).

 

After doing this for almost 20 years, it seems members many times are never in favor of new division. I used to always be in that group as well, and I would be perfectly fine with only one or two divisions now. But, if we're going to have multiple divisions and eliminate a gun that people want to shoot because a few loud people say leave s*** alone USPSA will eventually fizzle. Basically everyone was against carry ops and look at it now. 

 

I also get the reasoning behind adding a new division versus just allowing Sao guns in carryops, even though I would just put them in there. 

 

On the production stuff, I don't know if this will fix it or not. Part of me wishes they would just go ahead and make A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want only and let all the high cap iron sights guns just go head to head there, but I don't know if they'll ever do that. And I used to be completely against doing away with major in limited, but now beginning to think it makes sense. 

[BadShot]

So, revolvers with optics would now be allowed in L10?

[GrumpyOne]

I may be wrong, but it was my understanding that the 10 round limit in Production was made so the majority of guns could be used to shoot the division. But, do most "new" shooters actually buy gun that only has a 10 round mag anymore (if they ever did?). And, if they did have a gun that could only have a 10 round mag, do they still shoot it in matches, after they have shot it a few times in matches? I think most would recognize the deficiency (or perceived deficiency) of that type of platform and gravitate towards something that was better suited for the game. In that respect, I see the proposed move to a 15 round mag limit as evolution of the division, to more closely align with conditions in the real world. 

I don't agree with loading to mag capacity, as that will exclude many more guns and pretty much drive the division to just a few high capacity models. 

For those die hard fans of the 10 round limit, a new 15 round limit does not mean that you have to load 15 rounds...it just means that you can't load more than 15. If you want to practice your reloads, load your mags to 10 and rock on. 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

I don't agree with loading to mag capacity, as that will exclude many more guns and pretty much drive the division to just a few high capacity models. 

 

I was thinking the same thing.  That would not make much sense at all.  

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

I may be wrong, but it was my understanding that the 10 round limit in Production was made so the majority of guns could be used to shoot the division. But, do most "new" shooters actually buy gun that only has a 10 round mag anymore (if they ever did?). And, if they did have a gun that could only have a 10 round mag, do they still shoot it in matches, after they have shot it a few times in matches? I think most would recognize the deficiency (or perceived deficiency) of that type of platform and gravitate towards something that was better suited for the game. In that respect, I see the proposed move to a 15 round mag limit as evolution of the division, to more closely align with conditions in the real world. 

I don't agree with loading to mag capacity, as that will exclude many more guns and pretty much drive the division to just a few high capacity models. 

For those die hard fans of the 10 round limit, a new 15 round limit does not mean that you have to load 15 rounds...it just means that you can't load more than 15. If you want to practice your reloads, load your mags to 10 and rock on. 

 

You forget production was made during the Brady Bill when all new guns were 10 round limit and yes the 10 round limit has outlived it's usefulness. 

 

I personally like fit in the box and done. So if a Glock 17 with a plus 2 fits in the box it right on par with the few 19 round guns that also fit in the box. 

 

But realistically, the difference in 17&19 rounds on a field course is basically 0

[shred]

The only reason to keep the 10-round limit is poor schmucks in states with 10-round laws. 

 

So make it 15 (140/box/etc) and put in a hard rule that says "if it's a 10-round state, you only get 10 rounds".  No change for them, freedom for everyone else.

 

The "but woe is them travelling out of state" argument is best met with a 15 or box rule since factory mags are plentiful and perfectly-reliable-in-any-pistol 140s, not so much.

 

Anyone that really misses the thrill of reloads can shoot L10, Single Stack or Revo

 

 

[ChuckS]

29 minutes ago, shred said:

--- snip --- put in a hard rule that says "if it's a 10-round state, you only get 10 rounds".  No change for them, freedom for everyone else.

 

You mean 3.3.1?

 

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, BadShot said:

So, revolvers with optics would now be allowed in L10?

 

Yes. I hope that one goes through—classification in Limited Revolver 10 Optics sounds like a hoot.

 

Really, the whole division sounds like a hoot. Frame-mounted sights on a .45 Glock? Compact 1911 with a slide ride dot? Why not! A home for all the bonkers guns that don't fit other divisions seems like a great thing to do with L10.

[eisenhow]

37 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

You mean 3.3.1?

 

 

I've never seen 3.3.1 applied in a state that has grandfathering, like Massachusetts.  Make Production 15 and people who shoot platforms that didn't exit in 94 are SOL.

[rowdyb]

And Prod is still so hated this thread can't even get to two pages in the same time Lim Opt got to 5 pages....

[shred]

6 minutes ago, eisenhow said:

 

I've never seen 3.3.1 applied in a state that has grandfathering, like Massachusetts.  Make Production 15 and people who shoot platforms that didn't exit in 94 are SOL.

Why? 

 

Enforce it and borrow or buy hicap mags over the counter if you go to an out of state match and absolutely nothing changes for people that don't go out of state.

 

[Fishbreath]

13 minutes ago, eisenhow said:

I've never seen 3.3.1 applied in a state that has grandfathering, like Massachusetts.  Make Production 15 and people who shoot platforms that didn't exit in 94 are SOL.

 

This is a problem (IMO) with the application of 3.3.1, more than the idea of Production 15. The standard ought to be "legal to possess a magazine purchased today", rather than "legal to possess a magazine".

[eisenhow]

9 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

This is a problem (IMO) with the application of 3.3.1, more than the idea of Production 15. The standard ought to be "legal to possess a magazine purchased today", rather than "legal to possess a magazine".

 

Nobody in those states, who has preban mags (myself included), WANTS to be forced to shoot 10-rounds.  It's fine because people who don't can still shoot L10 or production.  Except everyone says 3.3.1:  Let's get rid of L10 you don't need it.  

 

22 minutes ago, shred said:

Why? 

 

Enforce it and borrow or buy hicap mags over the counter if you go to an out of state match and absolutely nothing changes for people that don't go out of state.

 

Doing so for ONLY production is an interesting idea.  You'd have to get ALL the MD's in the state to agree to that AND get permission from the USPSA president per 3.3 

[2MoreChains]

There are pros and cons to everything:

 

15 rnds proposal:  

Pros: 15 rnds is more funner than 10.  Levels the playing field since most guns on the Prod list can hold 15 rnds in a factory mag.  Differentiates Prod from the other divisions since it would be the only division with 15 rnds.   Most newbs have at least 3 mags, so they don’t need to be stuffed into winder-likker division that only a few crayon chewers want (and further inflating Limited activity numbers). 

Con:  Instead of counting to 10, ROs will now need to count to 15 or 15+1.  Not all ROs are very diligent about counting to 10 as it is.  15 is going to be even worse.  

 

Factory mag length proposal:  

Pros: Load ‘em up to capacity!  No need for ROs to count rounds.  Newb shooters with only 3 mag can now shoot Prod instead of winder-likker division.  

Cons:  Mag capacity envy from those people who’s gun only holds 15 rnds, and smug looks from the guy shooting guns that hold 19… Prod essentially becomes a 19 rnd division.  Allowing mag length is going to create an equipment race with mag springs to maximize capacity, and I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody figures out a spring/follower combo that increases capacity of the factory 19 rnd mags to 20 or 21 rnds.    

 

Factory length mag w/ short mag extension:

Pros:  Levels the playing field so the 15 rnd guys can add a basepad (that fits the box) to catch up to the factory 19 rnd mags,  A boon for companies making extended basepads that fit the box and increase a factory mag capacity to +1, +2, +3, etc..

Cons:  Yet another equipment race, only this time it is in basepads, springs, and followers.  As with mag length, Prod essentially becomes a 19 rnd division (if 15 is better than 10, 19 must be way more better… right?).

 

All that being said, I’d probably shoot Prod more if capacity was increased to any of the three proposals above.  

[SuperKing]

With stages being designed for hi-cap in mind, upping the cap to 15+ makes sense. 15 even is enough to force reloads anyways. And I say that as someone that shoots Prod as their main.

Low-cap on a hi-cap stage is boring as hell- run here, stand still, shoot, reload, run here etc. Might as well have a series of start boxes since lo-cap is about risk-management/not taking risks. Might as well just shoot an all classifier match. I would suppose if stages were designed with low-cap in mind, it wouldn't be that bad, but I am not going to ask stage designers to volunteer even more of their time to do so.

 

If people want to shoot lo-cap then go shoot Single Stack. Hell, low-cap is even implied in the name.

Edited December 28, 2022 by SuperKing

[mikeg1005]

22 minutes ago, SuperKing said:

With stages being designed for hi-cap in mind, upping the cap to 15+ makes sense. 15 even is enough to force reloads anyways. And I say that as someone that shoots Prod as their main.

Low-cap on a hi-cap stage is boring as hell- run here, stand still, shoot, reload, run here etc. Might as well have a series of start boxes since lo-cap is about risk-management/not taking risks. Might as well just shoot an all classifier match. I would suppose if stages were designed with low-cap in mind, it wouldn't be that bad, but I am not going to ask stage designers to volunteer even more of their time to do so.

 

If people want to shoot lo-cap then go shoot Single Stack. Hell, low-cap is even implied in the name.

 

What are you talking about?  If you're designing legal stages they're always 8 shot arrays max.  

[deerslayer]

If Production 15 or whatever-fits-the-box revives Production at all, I wonder how long it will be before 2011 fans start hollering about allowing SAO in Production.  

[SuperKing]

11 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

What are you talking about?  If you're designing legal stages they're always 8 shot arrays max.  

Not talking about the legality of an array, I am talking about managing the risk of taking an array on the move or going for a riskier plan without having a cap as constricting as 10.