2022 Rulebook Released

[Chrisyoung]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

It is making me consider shooting SSP. Going forward it's a toss up between SSP and CO right now.

 

I also want to run aiwb but my club has already said that's not happening here. Next closest club is about 2 hours, not sure their plans yet. 

Can a club not allow aiwb? It'll be a legal holster position for idpa that would be like the club not allowing co at the match because the MD doesn't like red dots.

I'd would email idpa and a ac about that.

[Chrisyoung]

1 hour ago, matteekay said:

 

That's a good note; Wilson doesn't make a gun (excluding their P320 riff) that qualifies for SSP.

I'm pretty sure that the wilson beretta is ssp legal 

[matteekay]

8 minutes ago, Chrisyoung said:

Can a club not allow aiwb? It'll be a legal holster position for idpa that would be like the club not allowing co at the match because the MD doesn't like red dots.

I'd would email idpa and a ac about that.

 

There's a provision in the rulebook (2.13) that states: "Ranges that host IDPA matches may have additional or more restrictive safety requirements. These safety restrictions will be accommodated by the IDPA MD and staff provided that they do not interfere or conflict with the Purpose and Principles of IDPA or the administration of the match according to the IDPA Safety Rules. Any additional restrictions or requirements must be published in all match announcements and visibly displayed at the match in a location accessible to the shooters."

 

Basically, yes, a club can disallow certain actions so long as it's properly messaged. My club doesn't allow AIWB at the moment but we're broaching the conversation now. 

[Chrisyoung]

5 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

There's a provision in the rulebook (2.13) that states: "Ranges that host IDPA matches may have additional or more restrictive safety requirements. These safety restrictions will be accommodated by the IDPA MD and staff provided that they do not interfere or conflict with the Purpose and Principles of IDPA or the administration of the match according to the IDPA Safety Rules. Any additional restrictions or requirements must be published in all match announcements and visibly displayed at the match in a location accessible to the shooters."

 

Basically, yes, a club can disallow certain actions so long as it's properly messaged. My club doesn't allow AIWB at the moment but we're broaching the conversation now. 

I haven't seen that part of the rulebook thanks for pointing it out. As the MD and club contact for my club I plan on allowing aiwb I see no reason not to. I strive to not have any "well you can't do that here" club rules. If idpa allows it so do we regardless of what our personal options may be. 

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, Chrisyoung said:

Can a club not allow aiwb? It'll be a legal holster position for idpa that would be like the club not allowing co at the match because the MD doesn't like red dots.

I'd would email idpa and a ac about that.

 

They'll call it a club safety concern. They're apparently supposed to get permission from HQ.  

[matteekay]

28 minutes ago, Chrisyoung said:

I haven't seen that part of the rulebook thanks for pointing it out. As the MD and club contact for my club I plan on allowing aiwb I see no reason not to. I strive to not have any "well you can't do that here" club rules. If idpa allows it so do we regardless of what our personal options may be. 

 

Unfortunately, a lot of us MD's don't have the authority to dictate range rules. My home range is technically a "club" so we're going to have to try to get the board to overturn the carte blanche rule prohibiting AIWB draws at our range.

[Thomas H]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think it came from this

 

https://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/idpa/Cornerstones2019.pdf

 

 

 

The problem with that, compared to what we now have (and, I'll note, what was in the match admin rules earlier) is that the PDF you linked specifically talks about how the preferred way is to let the action expose scoring targets, using as an example "opening a window when a baby is set down on the stomp box"...

....but the current rule means that you can dump the baby, and just step on the stomp box.  It isn't a shooting action, therefore you can't be penalized for it, even though you didn't remotely do what the WSB said you had to do.

 

(And that PDF's "last resort-but-legal" version was that you can tell the shooter what to do, but not how to do it--but if it doesn't get done, there is a PE.  But the current ruleset doesn't allow that.)

 

The currrent ruleset says you can't give any penalties for non-shooting actions.  If you are "supposed" to activate a mover (or do anything else) in a certain way according to a WSB---you don't have to do it that way.  You can't be penalized for not following the WSB as long as your shooting actions following the rest of the rulebook.

 

THAT'S the part I think will be an issue.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

The problem with that, compared to what we now have (and, I'll note, what was in the match admin rules earlier) is that the PDF you linked specifically talks about how the preferred way is to let the action expose scoring targets, using as an example "opening a window when a baby is set down on the stomp box"...

....but the current rule means that you can dump the baby, and just step on the stomp box.  It isn't a shooting action, therefore you can't be penalized for it, even though you didn't remotely do what the WSB said you had to do.

 

(And that PDF's "last resort-but-legal" version was that you can tell the shooter what to do, but not how to do it--but if it doesn't get done, there is a PE.  But the current ruleset doesn't allow that.)

 

The currrent ruleset says you can't give any penalties for non-shooting actions.  If you are "supposed" to activate a mover (or do anything else) in a certain way according to a WSB---you don't have to do it that way.  You can't be penalized for not following the WSB as long as your shooting actions following the rest of the rulebook.

 

THAT'S the part I think will be an issue.

 

 

 

I get what you're saying, we've been doing it that way here got a while. That's PDF is just the only thing I could find on the internet. 

 

It's possible we were the only region doing it, but I could of sworn this came up online before. But I couldn't easily find it. 

[matteekay]

31 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

The currrent ruleset says you can't give any penalties for non-shooting actions.  If you are "supposed" to activate a mover (or do anything else) in a certain way according to a WSB---you don't have to do it that way.  You can't be penalized for not following the WSB as long as your shooting actions following the rest of the rulebook.

 

THAT'S the part I think will be an issue.

 

 

 

I run a match on an indoor range; this change definitely makes my life harder (and removes a lot of options).

 

We had a "Miami Vice" stage last month where you had to collect drugs and money while shooting your way back to the boat. It was a PE for each of the items left on the stage when the last shot is fired (spelled out in the WSB). The money was in a lockbox that activated the last swinger, so I could build in motivation there, but the "drugs" were just staged throughout the course. I literally have no way to make the collection aspect work now.

[brother_hesekiel]

I was confused to read that SSP can use 15-rounds in the mags, but ESP and CO only 10 rounds. I have no idea why that is. Most stages will use more than 15 rounds, so it's one reload anyway, just a bit later in the game. Anybody here cares to guess the logic behind this?

Edited March 17, 2022 by brother_hesekiel

[Buzzdraw]

5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

They'll call it a club safety concern. They're apparently supposed to get permission from HQ.  

That's for USPSA under their Rule 3.3.  IDPA does not have a directly analogous rule.  The Board of Directors for our "big club" carefully considered AIWB and rejected that holster position for safety reasons.   It's hard to argue against their stance when it was absolute DQ level safety dogma in IDPA for many years.

[Sniperboy]

3 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

...The money was in a lockbox that activated the last swinger, so I could build in motivation there, but the "drugs" were just staged throughout the course. I literally have no way to make the collection aspect work now.

 

It's simple...  just build a box around the activator pad that can only be activated by a star shaped peg...  the peg attached to the prop.

Think of it like a public restroom key.. except only attached to a mannequin : p

We've already passed the realm of contention so lets see how far this goes, and maybe they will rescind the shooting action rule...  : )

 

[Thomas H]

14 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

I run a match on an indoor range; this change definitely makes my life harder (and removes a lot of options).

 

We had a "Miami Vice" stage last month where you had to collect drugs and money while shooting your way back to the boat. It was a PE for each of the items left on the stage when the last shot is fired (spelled out in the WSB). The money was in a lockbox that activated the last swinger, so I could build in motivation there, but the "drugs" were just staged throughout the course. I literally have no way to make the collection aspect work now.

 

Yes.  Exactly this sort of thing.

 

The stage forces people to think instead of just move and shoot, requires them to take attention away from the shoot targets periodically (which is pretty realistic), requires them to manually operate other things than the gun (which is pretty realistic)...and does it in such a way that there is no subjective nature to the procedure, so there is no question regarding procedural penalties---they either did it or they didn't.

 

That used to be fine.  It made for interesting stages. 

 

The new ruleset seems to have taken that away.

[Buzzdraw]

What originally attracted me to IDPA over 20 years ago was the application of its stated purpose; self defense shooting in real world situations.  That required stage props and required shooter operations not directly related to launching bullets downrange. Today's IDPA is all about the bullet launch, nothing much else.  Stages have become blah. RB 2022 will make them more blah I venture.

 

[Racinready300ex]

I agree, it's kind of lost something with this change. It's a throwing out the baby with the bath water kind of thing. There were certainly MD's setting up stages to get people and trick them into PE's. 

 

Since we are already doing this here, I can tell you how it goes. They read the brief, then the gamer in the group will say "I don't have to do that right?"...."It's a non shooting action it can't make me". It's then pointed out, no you don't have to do the thing, and no one does the thing. You then see less and less of the thing in stages. 

 

It's more noticeable at major matches, which is where I'd see more props and more elaborate stages. For me it's not really a deal breaker, I still have fun with it. 

[MarilynMonbro]

15 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

I run a match on an indoor range; this change definitely makes my life harder (and removes a lot of options).

 

We had a "Miami Vice" stage last month where you had to collect drugs and money while shooting your way back to the boat. It was a PE for each of the items left on the stage when the last shot is fired (spelled out in the WSB). The money was in a lockbox that activated the last swinger, so I could build in motivation there, but the "drugs" were just staged throughout the course. I literally have no way to make the collection aspect work now.

 

Pretty sure giving out PEs like that is not allowed under this

 

M-9.1.1 A written stage briefing may not supersede the shooting rules in Section

3 with regard to issuing procedural penalties to competitors. While a procedure may suggest a way to complete a string, the instructions are limited to following Section 3 in their guidance with regard to penalizing shooters. After the start signal

penalties for non-shooting actions may not be issued to competitors for their

performance on a stage.

 

Edit - looks like this was already said. My bad

Edited March 17, 2022 by MarilynMonbro

[JWhit]

12 hours ago, brother_hesekiel said:

I was confused to read that SSP can use 15-rounds in the mags, but ESP and CO only 10 rounds. I have no idea why that is. Most stages will use more than 15 rounds, so it's one reload anyway, just a bit later in the game. Anybody here cares to guess the logic behind this?

The 10 in ESP and CO was done not to disadvantage the many SS 1911s in these divisions and presumably allow CCP type guns with dots a place to compete in CO.  As you stated, it wont matter much now that you can reload at 10 with one in the pipe without penalty (in fact that may be more advantageous).  These changes are great for the sport as it will greatly reduce the incessant round dumping and negate most tac-reload decisions if your speed reloads are fast enough.  

[leadaddict]

I see that it definitely requires more creativity from stage designers and builders. You have to make doing the action you want the fastest way to activate a target or get through the stage.  We've been operating under this basic rule for at least the last year.  For example, at the Iowa state match last year to open several windows required a dowel stuck through several holes. Taking the dowel with you was the best way to do expose those targets.  For our local match last year I built an activator out of an old pallet that required dropping a brick in a bag down into it to activate it.  It would be very hard to activate without that brick or running around the obstacles, hence, people carried the brick in a bag through the stage.  Generally, at big matches they already have more elaborate props that can accommodate this.  Local matches will struggle more trying to be creative with stage designs that are practical.

[Sniperboy]

11 minutes ago, leadaddict said:

For our local match last year I built an activator out of an old pallet that required dropping a brick in a bag down into it to activate it.

 

Looks like people smarter than me have already figured it out : )

 

If non shooting actions are truly part of IDPA culture, then if love and politics have taught us anything - it's that a simple rule change will not guarantee a consensus.  People will find a way, albeit with more aggravation and some resentment. 

 

When diplomacy fails, all that will result is that the old skool folk who built up the original IDPA clubs will simply lose their vision and just leave.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Sniperboy

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, leadaddict said:

I see that it definitely requires more creativity from stage designers and builders. You have to make doing the action you want the fastest way to activate a target or get through the stage.  We've been operating under this basic rule for at least the last year.  For example, at the Iowa state match last year to open several windows required a dowel stuck through several holes. Taking the dowel with you was the best way to do expose those targets.  For our local match last year I built an activator out of an old pallet that required dropping a brick in a bag down into it to activate it.  It would be very hard to activate without that brick or running around the obstacles, hence, people carried the brick in a bag through the stage.  Generally, at big matches they already have more elaborate props that can accommodate this.  Local matches will struggle more trying to be creative with stage designs that are practical.

 

At least my area isn't the only one then. 

[Zincwarrior]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

Yes.  Exactly this sort of thing.

 

The stage forces people to think instead of just move and shoot, requires them to take attention away from the shoot targets periodically (which is pretty realistic), requires them to manually operate other things than the gun (which is pretty realistic)...and does it in such a way that there is no subjective nature to the procedure, so there is no question regarding procedural penalties---they either did it or they didn't.

 

That used to be fine.  It made for interesting stages. 

 

The new ruleset seems to have taken that away.

Run it as an outlaw match or just have that as a nonregulation stage. If its a local it doesn't really matter. If its a major match they ignore rules all the time anyway...

[Thomas H]

55 minutes ago, Zincwarrior said:

Run it as an outlaw match or just have that as a nonregulation stage. If its a local it doesn't really matter. If its a major match they ignore rules all the time anyway...

 

We much prefer to run our matches according to the rules, whether we are pleased about a particular rule or not.

 

Given one of the major issues many people have with IDPA (major continuing issues, unfortunately) is that many local IDPA clubs act as if they can use their own local rule sets, we'd rather not be one of those.

 

So we'll follow the rules. 

 

I happen to agree with Racinready300ex when he said:  "It's a throwing out the baby with the bath water kind of thing."

 

I also agree with his statement of:  "There were certainly MD's setting up stages to get people and trick them into PE's."  ...I just think that like normal for large organizations, instead of fixing the problem few, they instead limited the entire sport.

[Buzzdraw]

With the current rules interpretation explanation system IDPA is more likely to have the tribal rules continue.  That's versus a online Q & A system backed up by a single source for rules interpretation.  An example of this is the "stowing" rule that got out of hand for consistent interpretation for 2-3 years; should not have happened.  Once tribalism starts, often with good but mistaken intentions, it's difficult to revert. 

 

I agree with those who suggest that all matches, including basic club matches, be run by the rulebook.  Makes it so much simpler.  For those that want to run outlaw matches I say fine, but be clear that it is an outlaw match and not an IDPA match.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Buzzdraw
spelling

[Buzzdraw]

I abhor stages that are SO traps.  Ditto for stages that the MD or course designer gleefully hope to pin a whole slew of PE's on shooters.   Neither are in the spirit of good sportsmanship and fellowship, prime IDPA original tenants.

[Racinready300ex]

23 minutes ago, Buzzdraw said:

With the current rules interpretation explanation system IDPA is more likely to have the tribal rules continue. 

 

 

For sure, and that's probably the reason my area has been using this non-shooting action rule already. We've also been doing "if it fits the box and makes weight it's legal" in ESP. That's essentially the new rule anyway. I always just assumed if I traveled to a area with a different AC it might not be the same so I didn't risk it. 

 

I have run into a few rules over the years that were different under the AC to the north and the one to the south of us. This rule book is mostly better, but after some time in it we'll have the same issue.