2022 Rulebook Released

[JWhit]

49 minutes ago, Buzzdraw said:

With the current rules interpretation explanation system IDPA is more likely to have the tribal rules continue.  That's versus a online Q & A system backed up by a single source for rules interpretation.  An example of this is the "stowing" rule that got out of hand for consistent interpretation for 2-3 years; should not have happened.  Once tribalism starts, often with good but mistaken intentions, it's difficult to revert. 

 

I agree with those who suggest that all matches, including basic club matches, be run by the rulebook.  Makes it so much simpler.  For those that want to run outlay matches I say fine, but be clear that it is an outlaw match and not an IDPA match.

 

Agree completely - IDPA, probably more that USPSA, encourages its members to attend sanctioned matches (Tier 2 +) as demonstrated by the  promotion/bump system and the requirements to make DM versus GM through match performance. Therefore, it should be incumbent on the local MDs to prepare their members for higher levels of competition. That can only be achieved through strict adherence to the rules and incorporating courses of fire that replicate what member's will see at sanctioned matches. This continuity helps grow the sport and increases individual performance outcomes at sanctioned matches. If clubs don't want to follow IDPA rules, that's fine, just don't market it as such, and let the shooters know upfront it is an outlaw match in Practiscore registration.  

[MoRivera]

15-rd maximum for SSP, but not ESP or CO? 

Edited March 17, 2022 by MoRivera

[Buzzdraw]

19 hours ago, brother_hesekiel said:

I was confused to read that SSP can use 15-rounds in the mags, but ESP and CO only 10 rounds. I have no idea why that is. Most stages will use more than 15 rounds, so it's one reload anyway, just a bit later in the game. Anybody here cares to guess the logic behind this?

It's about the gun not the stage.  ESP was created for the .38 Super 1911 when the sport started.  It's a 10 round gun. CO follows ESP in all aspects except it has an optic.  The 10 round cap is there to not render it non-competitive.

[motosapiens]

On 3/16/2022 at 11:54 AM, Braxton1 said:

I'm just trying to figure out if I've gone full-"potato", as they say....

 

An SSP gun can have 15+1 in it?  An ESP can only have 10+1?  Doesn't sound very "ENHANCED" to me....

 

 

I've never shot esp because I'm a grown man (45, ftw), but if I were guessing, I'd guess they reasoned that many esp guns are 9mm 1911's that only hold 10 and they didn't want to obsoletify those guns. OTOH, almost all SSP guns (except my cz 40's) hold 15+ rounds, so might as well use them like they were meant.

[motosapiens]

23 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Unfortunately, a lot of us MD's don't have the authority to dictate range rules. My home range is technically a "club" so we're going to have to try to get the board to overturn the carte blanche rule prohibiting AIWB draws at our range.

we used to have a few fudds running our club too, then a bunch of USPSA shooters got fed up and ran for board positions, and everyone who shot uspsa or steel showed up at the election meeting. If you do this, my advice is keep it on the downlow so the fudds don't have a chance to try to get all the other fudds to show up to vote.

[motosapiens]

On 3/16/2022 at 1:37 PM, MHicks said:

SSP still  competes directly against shooters in the same division. It would increase the chances of high overall if that still gets recognized much.

i was going to say 'isn't high overall usually an ssp shooter anyway?', but then I remembered about CO and pcc. No one has ever really shot esp where I am. First overall was always ssp or cdp because they were uspsa production or ss shooters looking for some fun trigger time on a free weekend.

[MoRivera]

1 hour ago, Buzzdraw said:

It's about the gun not the stage.  ESP was created for the .38 Super 1911 when the sport started.  It's a 10 round gun. CO follows ESP in all aspects except it has an optic.  The 10 round cap is there to not render it non-competitive.

I still don't see why they would only increase SSP to 15 rounds unless they are trying to give it an advantage to better compete with ESP and CO and whatever edge those have over SSP in their view.  Has SSP really been getting that overwhelmed by ESP and CO?  Because to me it's been more about shooter preference, at least between SSP and ESP, whereas the dot I can see giving some an edge.  Or maybe cause they ARE trying to even SSP and CO competitively, and since CO and ESP share identical scoring, ESP gets grouped in with CO.

 

Maybe they should have just changed scoring for CO to distinguish it from ESP.

Edited March 17, 2022 by MoRivera

[Buzzdraw]

17 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

I still don't see why they would only increase SSP to 15 rounds unless they are trying to give it an advantage to better compete with ESP and CO and whatever edge those have over SSP in their view.  Has SSP really been getting that overwhelmed by ESP and CO?  Because to me it's been more about shooter preference, at least between SSP and ESP, whereas the dot I can see giving some an edge.  Or maybe cause they ARE trying to even SSP and CO competitively, and since CO and ESP share identical scoring, ESP gets grouped in with CO.

 

Maybe they should have just changed scoring for CO to distinguish it from ESP.

Shooters in IDPA compete only with others in the same Division, not with all shooters regardless of Division.  I don't think the mag cap changes in RB 2022 are any attempt to put divisions on an equal playing field with other divisions.

 

A few SSP guns out there have a mag capacity of less than 15 rounds.  The new 15 round rule makes some auto pistols, mainly 40 S&W, non-competitive for SSP.  Should SSP cap expansion have stopped at 12-13 maybe?

[motosapiens]

33 minutes ago, MoRivera said:

I still don't see why they would only increase SSP to 15 rounds unless they are trying to give it an advantage to better compete with ESP and CO and whatever edge those have over SSP in their view. 

15 rounds for co and esp makes a LOT of guns obsolete. 15 rounds for ssp makes only a tiny handful of guns obsolete.

[Thomas H]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

We've also been doing "if it fits the box and makes weight it's legal" in ESP. That's essentially the new rule anyway.

 

The thing I find amusing is what IDPA meant to have in its new ruleset for ESP...  (as we know from many communications making it clear) ....isn't what the new ruleset actually SAYS.

 

The new appendix for ESP literally doesn't allow ANYTHING other than what is allowed for all divisions.  (The permitted modifications list equates to 8.1.6 and 8.1.7.). And its "non-inclusive" list of excluded features is "trigger shoes."

 

IDPA has always been about "if we don't say you CAN do it, then you CAN'T."  And now....ESP has fewer allowed modifications than SSP.  Far fewer! 

 

Even better, since CCP and CO depend on the ESP ruleset for allowed modifications, it basically means that CCP and CO divisions don't allow hardly any modifications any more either.

 

(Note:  I know that isn't what they MEANT, and so it isn't what people will do---but it is what the rulebook says.)

 

For all the other divisions, it makes it clear what is "inclusive" and what is "non-inclusive" --- but for ESP it just says "Permitted modifications:  8.1.6 and 8.1.7" and nothing further.  

 

By that wording, ESP is about as stock as it can be.  (Which again, I realize it the opposite of what they meant.)

 

 

 

 

[Buzzdraw]

14 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

..........

 

For all the other divisions, it makes it clear what is "inclusive" and what is "non-inclusive" --- but for ESP it just says "Permitted modifications:  8.1.6 and 8.1.7" and nothing further.  

 

By that wording, ESP is about as stock as it can be.  (Which again, I realize it the opposite of what they meant.)

 

Like maybe it should have included or referenced all the CDP legal mod's and listed the CDP disallowed mods? 

[SSGGlock]

I really don’t understand why they cut the match bump requirements by half. 

[MoRivera]

2 hours ago, Buzzdraw said:

Shooters in IDPA compete only with others in the same Division, not with all shooters regardless of Division.  I don't think the mag cap changes in RB 2022 are any attempt to put divisions on an equal playing field with other divisions.

 

A few SSP guns out there have a mag capacity of less than 15 rounds.  The new 15 round rule makes some auto pistols, mainly 40 S&W, non-competitive for SSP.  Should SSP cap expansion have stopped at 12-13 maybe?

That's why I found it weird, otherwise why have different divisions?  

 

I just think they should have upped the capacity to 15 for all pistols since they were all 10 before.  Or just keep it at 10.

 

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

15 rounds for co and esp makes a LOT of guns obsolete. 15 rounds for ssp makes only a tiny handful of guns obsolete.

So might as well just keep it all at 10 like before.  Or just let every pistol start with maximum factory capacity.  I dunno, it just seems weird.

Edited March 18, 2022 by MoRivera

[Thomas H]

I also see that scenario stages can't have headshot-only targets any more.

 

4.12.1.3. Stationary or moving cardboard targets with cut away or black hard cover painted on them covering no more than half of one side for scenario stages. These targets should be part of the scenario description and appropriate for the stage.

 

(Bold emphasis added by me.)

 

Matter of fact, "half of one side" in a horizontal fashion still leaves the top six inches of the body's down zero zone (and every thing above it) as a shootable area, if the hardcover is on the bottom half.  (If it is on the top half, that's going to be a rough target with only the bottom 2 inches of the down zero zone showing...)

 

Matter of fact, don't zebra targets cover more than 1/2 of the target with hardcover?

 

So if the targets here were IDPA targets, only the ones with diagonal HC would be legal?

 

 

 

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

The thing I find amusing is what IDPA meant to have in its new ruleset for ESP...  (as we know from many communications making it clear) ....isn't what the new ruleset actually SAYS.

 

The new appendix for ESP literally doesn't allow ANYTHING other than what is allowed for all divisions.  (The permitted modifications list equates to 8.1.6 and 8.1.7.). And its "non-inclusive" list of excluded features is "trigger shoes."

 

IDPA has always been about "if we don't say you CAN do it, then you CAN'T."  And now....ESP has fewer allowed modifications than SSP.  Far fewer! 

 

Even better, since CCP and CO depend on the ESP ruleset for allowed modifications, it basically means that CCP and CO divisions don't allow hardly any modifications any more either.

 

(Note:  I know that isn't what they MEANT, and so it isn't what people will do---but it is what the rulebook says.)

 

For all the other divisions, it makes it clear what is "inclusive" and what is "non-inclusive" --- but for ESP it just says "Permitted modifications:  8.1.6 and 8.1.7" and nothing further.  

 

By that wording, ESP is about as stock as it can be.  (Which again, I realize it the opposite of what they meant.)

 

 

 

 

 

an interesting interpretation of the new rule book, you may be in the minority, lol...

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

I also see that scenario stages can't have headshot-only targets any more.

 

4.12.1.3. Stationary or moving cardboard targets with cut away or black hard cover painted on them covering no more than half of one side for scenario stages. These targets should be part of the scenario description and appropriate for the stage.

 

 

I missed this. Jeez, that kinda sucks. I guess I'm going to be making more scenario stages than I used to (one of the bays I use is very narrow).

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

The thing I find amusing is what IDPA meant to have in its new ruleset for ESP...  (as we know from many communications making it clear) ....isn't what the new ruleset actually SAYS.

 

The new appendix for ESP literally doesn't allow ANYTHING other than what is allowed for all divisions.  (The permitted modifications list equates to 8.1.6 and 8.1.7.). And its "non-inclusive" list of excluded features is "trigger shoes."

 

IDPA has always been about "if we don't say you CAN do it, then you CAN'T."  And now....ESP has fewer allowed modifications than SSP.  Far fewer! 

 

Even better, since CCP and CO depend on the ESP ruleset for allowed modifications, it basically means that CCP and CO divisions don't allow hardly any modifications any more either.

 

(Note:  I know that isn't what they MEANT, and so it isn't what people will do---but it is what the rulebook says.)

 

For all the other divisions, it makes it clear what is "inclusive" and what is "non-inclusive" --- but for ESP it just says "Permitted modifications:  8.1.6 and 8.1.7" and nothing further.  

 

By that wording, ESP is about as stock as it can be.  (Which again, I realize it the opposite of what they meant.)

 

 

 

 

 

Whoa, good point. I skimmed that section probably thinking I knew what they were going for. But I think you're right, it basically says nothing is legal. hmmm.

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, SSGGlock said:

I really don’t understand why they cut the match bump requirements by half. 

 

This seems crazy to me, I thought the bumps were borderline to easy before. I think the idea was probably that CO was so popular it was becoming almost impossible to get bumps in other divisions. It's basically always been impossible in Rev.

 

But using my local state match as a example, there will be 3-5 more shooters bumped to MA at that match vs the old rules. I would expect to see a lot of people making MA this year. 

[Chrisyoung]

46 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

This seems crazy to me, I thought the bumps were borderline to easy before. I think the idea was probably that CO was so popular it was becoming almost impossible to get bumps in other divisions. It's basically always been impossible in Rev.

 

But using my local state match as a example, there will be 3-5 more shooters bumped to MA at that match vs the old rules. I would expect to see a lot of people making MA this year. 

Making master will mean a lot less now. 

In a year there will be Ex and MA that have no hope of competing at that level. 

 

[Sorpe]

Rule 4.12.1.3 refers to cut away or painted targets. If you want a head shot, use a non-threat target upside down to block all but the head area. Or use it right-side up and eliminate all but a little of the -1 and  -3 areas on the body. Of course, you're still somewhat limited by the rule allowing only one NT per every two threat targets. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Sorpe

[Zincwarrior]

21 hours ago, JWhit said:

That can only be achieved through strict adherence to the rules and incorporating courses of fire that replicate what member's will see at sanctioned matches. 

We just blatantly steal their stages. 

[usmc1974]

So now IDPA a is basically USPSA?

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, Chrisyoung said:

Making master will mean a lot less now. 

In a year there will be Ex and MA that have no hope of competing at that level. 

 

ummm, has making master in idpa *ever* meant anything? It's always been like moderately accurate B class uspsa.

[RangerTrace]

24 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

ummm, has making master in idpa *ever* meant anything? It's always been like moderately accurate B class uspsa.

I've heard this said many times.   I was a decent  "A"  class limited shooter before my life changes happened.  Picked up IDPA because it fit my possession schedule better.  Haven't done better than EX since.....

[njl]

On 3/16/2022 at 6:01 PM, matteekay said:

 

There's a provision in the rulebook (2.13) that states: "Ranges that host IDPA matches may have additional or more restrictive safety requirements. These safety restrictions will be accommodated by the IDPA MD and staff provided that they do not interfere or conflict with the Purpose and Principles of IDPA or the administration of the match according to the IDPA Safety Rules. Any additional restrictions or requirements must be published in all match announcements and visibly displayed at the match in a location accessible to the shooters."

 

Basically, yes, a club can disallow certain actions so long as it's properly messaged. My club doesn't allow AIWB at the moment but we're broaching the conversation now. 

Is that a local IDPA club rule or a rule established by the range/gun club where the IDPA club shoots?