Steel Challenge - Jan 15, 2022 BOD Minutes - Zack Jones Presentation

[BentAero]

I am not in favor of changing SCSA stages, particularly Outer Limits.

We race against the clock and with our peers. 

Life isn't fair, and never will be. Accept it, or don't.

Edited March 3, 2022 by BentAero

[Sinister4]

Shoot the entire thing from the middle box, bam done deal.......and  IMHO make all the plates smaller, a tad less speed and a tad more accuracy 

 

The only true ¨fair¨way to leave the movement is to take a actual look at the splits between the boxes for each class and that number should be the penalty time for not moving. In todays world of rapid data it really would be easy to do.  Might be 4 seconds for D and 1½ for GM 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Sinister4

[varminter22]

9 hours ago, BentAero said:

I am not in favor of changing SCSA stages, particularly Outer Limits.

We race against the clock and with our peers. 

Life isn't fair, and never will be. Accept it, or don't.

 

Well, in that case, add movement to all stages!  

 

NOT!

 

It simply makes no sense to have one lonely stage with movement.  

 

And, by the way, I (and virtually all) have accepted the fact that life isn't fair.  Hence, we enjoy shooting USPSA, ICORE, etc WITH MOVEMENT!

[egd5]

9 hours ago, BentAero said:

I am not in favor of changing SCSA stages, particularly Outer Limits.

We race against the clock and with our peers. 

Life isn't fair, and never will be. Accept it, or don't.

No, life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean that we can't try to make it a little better for those less fortunate. It's called human kindness and compassion.

[varminter22]

In other words, make most Steel Challenge stages into "run & gun" competition, or get rid of the ONE stage that has movement.  

[BentAero]

Many clubs that host SCSA matches never run Outer Limits (or Speed Option) because they don't have bays deep enough to do so.

Why don't these clubs have higher than normal percentages of physically challenged shooters that are happy about that fact?

If they never run OL, those who are physically challenged should be flocking to those matches.

I'm not seeing that happen.

 

In the southeast at least, clubs with 'deep' bays that have the flexibility to offer any of the 8 stages (at their 5 or 6 stage match) seem to get the best attendance. 

Some clubs go so far as to brag/advertise their ability to run outer limits and speed option to boost preregistration.

When clubs start advertising "we do not run Outer Limits! No movement required!", that's when this might get traction.

With registered shooter counts up astronomically over the past three years, it doesn't seem like this is the lowest hanging fruit of problems to fix.

 

Please don't misinterpret my remarks as being unsympathetic to those shooters who are physically challenged for whatever reason. Nothing makes me cringe more than when I go to a USPSA match (less, and less often) and see a stage that requires running to a position, then having to get on my knees. The pain starts before I ever get there. I don't like it, but I cope. I know I'll be 5 seconds slower on that stage than most others. I'm not going to ask that prop be tossed out simply because I don't want to get down and up off the ground. I'll take the penalty.

 

[egd5]

That's fine, take the penalty. My ability to run fast and get up from kneeling (down is the easy part) is not good either. But USPSA is a run and gun sport. Steel Challenge is not, except for that one stage. Just eliminating the movement in that one stage, without altering any other aspect of the entire system, is such a simple thing that would open the sport up to more people seems to be a no-brainer to me.

 

I'll grant you this will not make a huge difference in attendance. But it doesn't hurt anything and it can and will help some, so why not.

[Umbrarian]

20 minutes ago, BentAero said:

Many clubs that host SCSA matches never run Outer Limits (or Speed Option) because they don't have bays deep enough to do so.

Why don't these clubs have higher than normal percentages of physically challenged shooters that are happy about that fact?

If they never run OL, those who are physically challenged should be flocking to those matches.

I'm not seeing that happen.

 

 

They do were I am.

[BentAero]

There is more to outer limits than just the movement; it's the only stage when the shooter purposely stops mid-string from a steady cadence, (moves) and to some degree, has to reaquire the next plate before continuing to fire.

That alone is worth keeping outer limits.

[varminter22]

2 hours ago, egd5 said:

That's fine, take the penalty. My ability to run fast and get up from kneeling (down is the easy part) is not good either. But USPSA is a run and gun sport. Steel Challenge is not, except for that one stage. Just eliminating the movement in that one stage, without altering any other aspect of the entire system, is such a simple thing that would open the sport up to more people seems to be a no-brainer to me.

 

I'll grant you this will not make a huge difference in attendance. But it doesn't hurt anything and it can and will help some, so why not.

 

Precisely!

[egd5]

" That alone is worth keeping OL" Really!!! Well then, let's do some other weird thing and that would be a reason to keep that weird thing, and then another, and then another....

[BentAero]

33 minutes ago, egd5 said:

" That alone is worth keeping OL" Really!!! Well then, let's do some other weird thing and that would be a reason to keep that weird thing, and then another, and then another....

Weird thing? What's weird about pointing out the uniqueness of the stage?

The few of us on this forum are in our own small bubble. I really doubt the masses will support doing away with OL.

[egd5]

OK, weird was not the right word, different is what I meant.

It's true that those on this forum are  a drop in the bucket. But I'd bet more people would be in favor of dropping the movement than not.

[BentAero]

1 hour ago, egd5 said:

OK, weird was not the right word, different is what I meant.

It's true that those on this forum are  a drop in the bucket. But I'd bet more people would be in favor of dropping the movement than not.

Hmmm.. I could be wrong. We could both be wrong.

I'm shooting an 8 stage match Saturday, and hopefully another 8 the  following Saturday. I'll ask around.

[egd5]

Good idea. I'll try to remember to do that at our SC match next weekend.

[AzShooter]

Most of the people I've talked to would gladly drop the movement.

 

In my wheelchair days I believed the 4 second penalty was extreme.  I still feel that way.  Cutting out movement would eliminate the problem people have commented on where a wheelchair bound person actually posted the highest scores for OL.

[Nolan]

Keep the stages the way they are.  I'm tired of diluting everything to accommodate the lowest common denominator. 

 

Sure it would be easier, and how about we use bigger targets and closer too,  do away with miss penalties, and everyone can just start with their gun on target instead of in that pesky holster, or heck make it real easy just give everyone an 8 second stage time and a participation trophy.

 

Nolan

[hornetx40]

Retire the stage. Build a new stage with the same targets, so there is no new targets needed.  Make the stage fit into a 25 yd. deep bay. This will allow many clubs to use another stage. Personally I like outer limits. It is a heck of a challenge. It would be good to give clubs another option. It won't change who the winners are one bit because the same people will still be the fastest.

[old558]

On 3/5/2022 at 6:57 PM, hornetx40 said:

Retire the stage. Build a new stage with the same targets, so there is no new targets needed.  Make the stage fit into a 25 yd. deep bay. This will allow many clubs to use another stage. Personally I like outer limits. It is a heck of a challenge. It would be good to give clubs another option. It won't change who the winners are one bit because the same people will still be the fastest.

This is probably very true. Outer limits is one of my worst stages but I am getting better. I hope they don't change it before I beat it.  The I don't care.

[RickT]

Why don't we just return to the 3 second penalty to give those who must take a penalty a bit of a break.  I tried to get of copy of whatever material was presented to the BoD on this matter and/or a copy of the analysis that claimed "that 80% of shooters could cheat with a 3 seconds penalty" and/or the raw data that was used for the analysis.  Had no success going through the Area 1 director.  The increase appears to be completely arbitrary and unfair.

[outerlimits]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:16 PM, Nolan said:

Keep the stages the way they are.  I'm tired of diluting everything to accommodate the lowest common denominator. 

 

Sure it would be easier, and how about we use bigger targets and closer too,  do away with miss penalties, and everyone can just start with their gun on target instead of in that pesky holster, or heck make it real easy just give everyone an 8 second stage time and a participation trophy.

 

Nolan

+10

[nso123]

In my opinion, Outer Limits is the stage that sets GMs apart.  Plenty of people can shoot over 100% on the other stages, but OL requires more than muscle memory. Don’t believe it’s muscle memory on the other stages?  I shot with one of the current world record holders and watched him miss the stop plate several times on a stage that was set up wrong. We got it corrected and he was back to hammering. 

[AzShooter]

Change the stage so that clubs can shoot all 8 stages.  That's the biggest reason for making a change.  

[BentAero]

1 hour ago, AzShooter said:

Change the stage so that clubs can shoot all 8 stages.  That's the biggest reason for making a change.  

 

I emphatically disagree. Outer Limits and Speed Option both require 35 yard depth. Gonna retire that one too?

[egd5]

I only have a problem (to level the field for everyone) with Outer Limits. It's the only oddball in all the other speed shooting stages. It is a movement stage, and unnecessary. After all, the national championship is The World SPEED SHOOTING Championships--my emphasis. Maybe it should be named something like the world tactical speed shooting championship.