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2021 Locap Nats, what did you think?


rowdyb

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5 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

What's a realistic solution for calibration, then? Testing ammo that was not used to hit the popper does not tell you anything - it could have been one light round out of hundreds the competitor had with them. The most viable solution I've seen is to call it a REF if the hit is in the calibration zone, but that's also imperfect because it's much harder to tell exactly where a hit is on steel, such as with edge hits and obliquely angled hits.

 

The REF if the calibration zone is hit will never hold up as people can (and will) argue that partially painted hits were their hits.  You can't do an overlay as not all steel is the same.  List goes on and on and on.  

 

Best solution (without reinventing the wheel)...?  When calibration is called...

 

  • RM gets to play with the steel to figure out if its messed up... decide if something (like a bolt visibly backed out) caused it.  Decide if its REF.
  • If nothing is wrong, AT MINIMUM knock the steel over by hand and reset it before shooting it (since sometimes the thing doesn't settle the same after being shot).
  • Go and shoot it again.
  • Calibrate all steel with 120-115pf ammo to give more margin of error for shifting range surface/bolts moving/etc. 

This would at least give the range staff the ability to decide if something is actually messed that caused the shooter to not knock the steel down vs. just going and shooting it. 

 

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3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:


Use plates instead, cheaper, lighter, and no calibration zone as the whole plate constitutes a hit.

 

Plates cause A LOT of REFs.   Especially when someone inadvertently sets them up wrong so they spin vs. fall off. 

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1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Maybe this happening to JJ will turn into a good thing for the sport. Maybe now the BOD will fix this issue that has plagued this sport for the past 20 years.

I doubt that.  They have to focus on important issues. Something like flashlights, you know.

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1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

The REF if the calibration zone is hit will never hold up as people can (and will) argue that partially painted hits were their hits.  You can't do an overlay as not all steel is the same.  List goes on and on and on.  

 

Best solution (without reinventing the wheel)...?  When calibration is called...

 

  • RM gets to play with the steel to figure out if its messed up... decide if something (like a bolt visibly backed out) caused it.  Decide if its REF.
  • If nothing is wrong, AT MINIMUM knock the steel over by hand and reset it before shooting it (since sometimes the thing doesn't settle the same after being shot).
  • Go and shoot it again.
  • Calibrate all steel with 120-115pf ammo to give more margin of error for shifting range surface/bolts moving/etc. 

This would at least give the range staff the ability to decide if something is actually messed that caused the shooter to not knock the steel down vs. just going and shooting it. 

 

 

Problem with item number 1 is how do you know how long it's been like that, to the point it caused an REF

 

Item number 2 is intriguing - knock it over, then reset and calibrate. Eliminates the possibility of it being rocked back and then being sent over the edge (ie a light load from the shooter moving it then the calibration shot finishing the job).

 

Note: I'm not trying to be negative, I'm genuinely interested in improving the process. It's just a difficult thing to solve.

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49 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

The other 2 mikes, 2 no shoots, 5 charlie, 1 delta cost that person the title just as much as getting hosed by a popper. 

 

The 126 PF didn't help either... For the reference, Nils had 133 PF.

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43 minutes ago, NMBOpen said:

Failed equipment check/chrono sub-minor bump to Open (not recognized for this match so shooting for no score.

 

The sub-minor does NOT give you a bump to Open. It gives you ZERO scores regardless of the declared division.

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17 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

The popper didn't go on social media this morning crying about nationals, the competitor did.  

 

Not to mention his approach was not to bring awareness to the popper issue, but rather complaining about why he lost, which read as though he was nullifying Nil's win. 

 

 

No, HQ being lazy is the reason popper calibration issues aren't addressed.. and I'm also VERY loud/pro fixing the existing rules.

 

JJ had 74 other reasons (70 charlies, 2 mikes, 2 no shoots) that lost him the match, he chose to write a "poor me" about the popper instead.     

 

 

Well, his "moaning" started off with admitting that there were many reasons he didn't win; he just says the popper hurt the most.  Probably for all the reasons that BritinUSA pointed out; this was out of his control, and could've been prevented.  Sounds like calibration has been an issue for a long time, so I don't think it's out of line for Racaza to point it out.

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8 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

 

Problem with item number 1 is how do you know how long it's been like that, to the point it caused an REF

 

Item number 2 is intriguing - knock it over, then reset and calibrate. Eliminates the possibility of it being rocked back and then being sent over the edge (ie a light load from the shooter moving it then the calibration shot finishing the job).

 

Note: I'm not trying to be negative, I'm genuinely interested in improving the process. It's just a difficult thing to solve.

 

Yup, #1 is not an option.

 

#2 is a combo of things I've seen and ideas that CROs, MDs, and RMs, have brought up to me in random conversations. 

 

With a handful of calls USPSA could reach out to people who have been running/officiating matches for DECADES to propose ideas on how to fix this.   Its never addressed. 

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A (non-competitor) person I was talking to on Discord mentioned using a force gauge of some kind to check fall weight for poppers. That would be interesting - a spec/tolerance for fall weight, and then the RM or CRO can verify the popper at any time.

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6 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

The sub-minor does NOT give you a bump to Open. It gives you ZERO scores regardless of the declared division.

Area 2 a while back, Open Major declared; made major but mag didn't fit gauge. They had to mark me as sub-minor to properly get to no score.  The slash in my earlier post was to indicate failed equipment check OR sub-minor.

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I think if you look back on the history of this popper design it was designed around a 175PF bullet. Very few people were shooting Minor back then. This is a huge weight to move and with 125 grain bullets at 125PF it’s inevitable that problems are going to occur.

 

The requirement of the target have changed due to changes in PF and bullet weight. Form must follow function; The function changed, the form did not.

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6 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

Well, his "moaning" started off with admitting that there were many reasons he didn't win; he just says the popper hurt the most.  Probably for all the reasons that BritinUSA pointed out; this was out of his control, and could've been prevented.  Sounds like calibration has been an issue for a long time, so I don't think it's out of line for Racaza to point it out.

 

 

Yes, getting popper f*#ked sucks.  Had it happen to me, so has most everyone I know.  

 

None of us went and cried about how we lost by it, and NONE of us after crying about it had to compliment the winner to make sure we weren't taking anything away them by our post.


This isn't my opinion, social media today as a whole sees his post as poor taste and he's already making statements retracting he so that goes to show you he too knows it doesn't look good. 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

The popper didn't go on social media this morning crying about nationals, the competitor did.  

 

Not to mention his approach was not to bring awareness to the popper issue, but rather complaining about why he lost, which read as though he was nullifying Nil's win. 

 

 

No, HQ being lazy is the reason popper calibration issues aren't addressed.. and I'm also VERY loud/pro fixing the existing rules.

 

JJ had 74 other reasons (70 charlies, 2 mikes, 2 no shoots) that lost him the match, he chose to write a "poor me" about the popper instead.     

 

 

 

So you're only pro fixing rules when you like how the shooter handles the situation. I guess that's reasonable. 

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1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So you're only pro fixing rules when you like how the shooter handles the situation. I guess that's reasonable. 


JJ falls in a long line of people getting popper f*#ked... I've been pro fixing popper f*#kage for a long time... you can call someone out for how they handle something and still support their cause, those 2 are not mutually exclusive. 

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1 minute ago, mikeg1005 said:


JJ falls in a long line of people getting popper f*#ked... I've been pro fixing popper f*#kage for a long time... you can call someone out for how they handle something and still support their cause, those 2 are not mutually exclusive. 

 

Your post seemed more dismissive of the problem, essentially saying "well he could of done anything better and won". Which is true, but you also we making the problem out to not be a issue. Maybe you should of clarified. But you're more interested in the shooter then the issue in this instance. 

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If the chronoed ammo was only 126, how do we know that the ammo that hit the popper made minor. It very well could have been sub minor ammo and the popper did its job correctly...

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Just now, rowdyb said:

Anything from anyone who shot it? I'm driving so no real typing for a while.

I shot and staffed it. Things I liked:

 

I really like the CMP range, they just need to expand (if possible) the number of bays.

A lot of the smaller stages were very interesting.

I did enjoy some of the larger field courses, despite what I am going to say in the next section.

 

Thinks I disliked:

It felt like a number of stages were really geared towards 10 round vs 8 round divisions. They were legal, but it made things more annoying that they needed to be.

Shooting box stages that aren't speed shoots are never acceptable at any level, in my opinion

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Just now, RJH said:

If the chronoed ammo was only 126, how do we know that the ammo that hit the popper made minor. It very well could have been sub minor ammo and the popper did its job correctly...

 

I've seen video of one other shooter who didn't knock it down when hit in the calibration zone. Lucky for them it didn't fall on calibration. 

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

Your post seemed more dismissive of the problem, essentially saying "well he could of done anything better and won". Which is true, but you also we making the problem out to not be a issue. Maybe you should of clarified. But you're more interested in the shooter then the issue in this instance. 

 

JJ's post looks reads as such that Nils won but "I" got screwed and should have won.  Its really poor taste, so much so that after all the reactions he's trying to redact it.   I don't blame him.  

 

The issue in this instance has been a problem since I started shooting 10 years ago.  2 RMs, who knows how many BoD members, and 3 administrations later, it still not addressed besides "recommendations" that people check the steel.  No one in charge wants to address it, ever. 

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5 minutes ago, RJH said:

If the chronoed ammo was only 126, how do we know that the ammo that hit the popper made minor. It very well could have been sub minor ammo and the popper did its job correctly...

 

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I've seen video of one other shooter who didn't knock it down when hit in the calibration zone. Lucky for them it didn't fall on calibration. 

 

Yup.  Almost every time I've seen poppers not fall for minor shooters, even light end minor shooters, guys shooting major barely knock it over.  This was a defective piece of steel/incorrectly maintained. 

 

Also... the whole what was chrono'ed vs. what was shot... there are people running around majors shooting 126 or less probably and drop chrono rounds into the chrono bag so I'm not sure if that argument really holds up. 

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Chrono rounds used to be random. You’d get to a stage and an RO would pick people at random and pull some rounds from a magazine, or they would pick a dropped magazine off the ground and put those rounds in a bag. I guess at some point some match organizer figured it would be easier to just pull them from everyone at the start of the match.

 

The accuracy of the chrono itself is a whole different issue.

 

If there was any question about his rounds, the RO could have pulled some from his magazine and directed him to the chronograph.

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I'm not saying that anyone intentionally shot sub minor ammo. What I am saying is that shooting that close to the power floor can cause issues if you get a light powder drop. 

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41 minutes ago, RJH said:

If the chronoed ammo was only 126, how do we know that the ammo that hit the popper made minor. It very well could have been sub minor ammo and the popper did its job correctly...

Following this logic to the end would result in everyone winning a popper challenge since proper calibration ammo never makes minor PF.  

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