2021 Locap Nats, what did you think?

[BritinUSA]

If they were using IOS devices then I would suggest that standard procedure would be to turn off the Automatic Software Update option in the Settings. 

I think it’s set on by default.

[Bakerjd]

My thoughts after shooting 2021 locap nats. I'm a ok c class SS shooter and am no expert by far so take this as you like.

 

1. One well known CRO was extremely rude when asked to overlay a hit. Asked me multiple times if I was seriously asking them to overlay the hit. Then got even more pissed when I asked for RM. The CRO is well known for being rude and shouldnt be a CRO IMO if they want to be rude to any competitor who asks for an overlay or anything else that is well within the rules as defined by USPSA. 

 

2. Banquet was a total disaster. First off they ran out of food before I'd say half of the people there got anything. Second instead of calling out names for the prize table as they do in FL they just said hey prize table is over there, line up by order of finish in your division. Then no direction at all. Thankfully a select few VOLUNTEERS straightened it out as best they could. The whole thing was a total s#!t show compared to my experience at the 2019 locap nats. 

 

Other then those two issues I had a lot of fun. Achieved the goal I set for myself of being top ten in SS C class. Got to see some shooting friends I havent seen in a long time. 

 

Regrets/things I learned. You can chrono and check your gun that it fits the box before you start the match. Never knew that. Keep match mindset through the last stage, I didnt and it cost me a procedural penalty and 2 mikes for forgetting a target. Dont go overly fast because it costs you mikes, I went to fast and less accurate shots the first day in area B. 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

9 hours ago, euxx said:

 

At the same time, two out of 4 rounds they shot trough chrono for JJ were sub-minor...

JJ states he had multiple shots register at 1020ish, then one read 990. The next four did not register. They proceeded to repair/replace the chronograph and he shot another 1020ish.

 

I doubt he’d be brave enough to make up such a story. Not when several people who were present for his chono experience will inevitably hear about it via social media.

[rowdyb]

6 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

 

2. Banquet was a total disaster. First off they ran out of

And people at the match were asking me if I was going to stay and then were incredulous when I said "no way!" emphatically.  How many people who weren't in the top ten of a division who went wish they had that time back?

[euxx]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

JJ states he had multiple shots register at 1020ish, then one read 990. The next four did not register. They proceeded to repair/replace the chronograph and he shot another 1020ish.

 

I doubt he’d be brave enough to make up such a story. Not when several people who were present for his chono experience will inevitably hear about it via social media.

 

Can't say anything about repairing chronograph. But you can see what was entered for him at chrono in the match results.

 

 

 

[rowdyb]

I can hear the conspiracy theories now, Beretta guy at Beretta nats has chrono "fixed".

 

I hope no one stoops to that stuff.

[RJH]

No conspiracies from me.   But I do wonder if that screen shot of the chrono readings was posted by the video of the popper not falling for full disclosure.....

 

 

What really sucks is that people will jump on the JJ is the real champ wagon without knowing that 40% of JJ's ammo looks like it was sub minor and it will taint Nils' win. 

 

 

 

On the match itself, I didn't attend but did watch some videos.  Looked good overall, but I would have liked to see more move and shoot stages vs run here and shoot, then run here and shoot stages.    

Edited May 11, 2021 by RJH
Bad math skillz

[euxx]

It is really about making choices and all part of the game. Running ammo close to the PF limit is a choice too. A PRO shooter should know the risks associated with that. Seems like a gamble to me...

 

PS: Nils ammo were over 132 PF and Mason's - over 135 PF

[B_RAD]

8 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

 

 

2. Banquet was a total disaster. First off they ran out of food before I'd say half of the people there got anything.

 

 

Was it finger foods?

 

Seriously, how do you run out of food for an event that you know how many people will be attending?  

[Bagellord]

2 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Was it finger foods?

 

Seriously, how do you run out of food for an event that you know how many people will be attending?  

 

I wonder if more people stayed than they were expecting, though it seemed like food was an issue during the whole match. I ended up bringing my own food after the first day to ensure I'd have something to eat (and be able to get it quickly to have time to police my stage).

[B_RAD]

19 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

 

I wonder if more people stayed than they were expecting, though it seemed like food was an issue during the whole match. I ended up bringing my own food after the first day to ensure I'd have something to eat (and be able to get it quickly to have time to police my stage).

You take the match attendees and add %15. 

 

Not hard. If you have leftovers oh well. Nobody will gripe about that. You run out of food,......

 

 

To me, it looks like to some folks Nats isn't a big deal. It's just a match. I'm talking specifically about people in charge. 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by B_RAD

[rowdyb]

I was squaded w Gianni and other good shooters. True shooting on the move,  not just in a few steps on entry or exit, was very rare.

 

And I feel sorry for the 8 round guns.

[BritinUSA]

14 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Not hard. If you have leftovers oh well. Nobody will gripe about that. You run out of food,......

…and any food left over could be dropped off at the nearest homeless shelter.

[Bagellord]

55 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

I was squaded w Gianni and other good shooters. True shooting on the move,  not just in a few steps on entry or exit, was very rare.

 

And I feel sorry for the 8 round guns.

 

I was really shocked at the way it was laid out for the 8 round guns on some of the stages. They were legal, but some of us had to do some funky things.

[motosapiens]

20 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Maybe this happening to JJ will turn into a good thing for the sport. Maybe now the BOD will fix this issue that has plagued this sport for the past 20 years.

I've only been shooting for 9 years, and worked lots of nationals and lots of area matches, and shot lots of big matches. this issue isn't plaguing me. I see a handful of the same old malcontents complaining about it and suggesting fixes that would be much much worse. Like any other outdoor sport, sometimes the weather plays a role. If it starts raining and blowing, it's harder for a passing football team to come from behind in a game.... bummer.   If the clouds blow off in a downhill ski race so the later competitors can see better contrast than the early starters.... bummer....   I don't know what power factor JJ was shooting, but if you shoot low in the calibration zone on a gusty day and get unlucky.... bummer.   It's unfortunate that it happened, but weird acts of god happen to EVERY shooter. Sure, I most often shoot major, but I have been to area and national matches shooting production and ss minor as well, and all the poppers went down for me.

 

If I were going to fix anything, it would be to specify that chrono ammo must be 115pf or below, and I would give the RM leeway to actually move the popper and feel it and inspect it before resetting and shooting it. When I calibrate at my home range, I try to hit towards the bottom of the calibration zone, but not everyone does.

[motosapiens]

19 hours ago, euxx said:

 

The 126 PF didn't help either... For the reference, Nils had 133 PF.

I wasn't smart enough to find the chrono velocities in practiscore, but if jj chrono'd at 126.... then all my sympathy has evaporated. If you average 126, then we know for sure that some of the rounds are below that. there may be a lesson to be learned here.  My CO loads are a bit under 130, so sometimes I take the extra instant to aim high on big poppers.

Edited May 11, 2021 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

18 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Anything from anyone who shot it? I'm driving so no real typing for a while.

it went down like a boss when I shot it. 

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Can we talk about this specific match rather than popper calibration generally?

I thought the stages were generally pretty good. Most of them had options (the one I worked had 3-4 very different possible stage plans, *all* of which were used by at least some supersquad shooters). I thought there was good diversity in the stages, a small handful of hosey targets, and a lot of targets and wide transitions that put a premium on being able to shoot accurately while not wasting time, and efficient movement. 

 

You may have noticed alot of mini-poppers used as activators, and alot of the cables were pretty tight, which resulted in quicker presentation of moving targets than many people were used to. I saw alot of people get caught off guard by that, expecting to have time to shoot a 10-yard partial static target after activating, but not having the time to get the mover on the first presentation. This caused some risk/reward choices, and even supersquad guys were sometimes activating and then just waiting on the stage 1 bobber.

 

For sure, there was an advantage for 10-round major, if you are bench-racing against your buddy in L10, but it appeared that for SS, the right choice for the better shooters was still major.

[rowdyb]

Poppers are like 20th on my list of things to change or worry about if I were king of uspsa. So nothing to worry about.

 

132pf btw w a 148gr bullet.

[Fishbreath]

I was only an observer this year.

 

I enjoyed the livestream for what it was, and hope that this is a foundation on which to build future broadcasts that non-competitors can appreciate.

 

In regards to the stages, I'm playing substitute MD for a local match in June and July, and plan on borrowing 4-5 of the nationals stages for it. There were more than enough to choose from below the threshold of complexity beyond which the setup crew starts to gripe—take that as you will.

 

I don't have much to say on the popper issue. I tend to shoot factory ammo in semi-auto divisions, which never has much trouble making power factor, and my revolver loads are about 130-135PF. I do think it's pretty wild how close this match was. It's not just a miss or an alpha that separated Nils and JJ, it's literal fractions of a second. If JJ had gone 0.1s faster on Stage 6, he wins the match even with the popper.

[Chills1994]

23 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

One of the clubs I used to shoot at has the blue stands with a white hinged plate on thorp, no idea who makes them but I don’t recall ever seeing an issue with them.

Blue and white colors used to be kinda like the unofficial “trademark” of Max Davidson’s targets at gunsteel.com .

 

I would have to say Max has been out of the steel target manufacturing business since about 2011, though.

[Chills1994]

23 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

JJ's post looks reads as such that Nils won but "I" got screwed and should have won.  Its really poor taste, so much so that after all the reactions he's trying to redact it.   I don't blame him.  

 

The issue in this instance has been a problem since I started shooting 10 years ago.  2 RMs, who knows how many BoD members, and 3 administrations later, it still not addressed besides "recommendations" that people check the steel.  No one in charge wants to address it, ever. 

I got popper f_ _ _ ed at the 2008 Missouri Fall Classic.

 

This was back in the day when I was running a Samsung sports camera on the bill of my cap.

 

And I was uploading the videos to video.google prior to google buying YouTube.

 

I am sure there was a thread about it here way back when.

 

And how many other competitors since the fall of 2008 have been P.F.’ed since then with absolutely NO change to the rules or calibration procedure?

[rowdyb]

39 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

It's not just a miss or an alpha that separated Nils and JJ, it's literal fractions of a second. If JJ had gone 0.1s faster on Stage 6, he wins the match even with the popper.

And that goes back to what multiple  M and GM shooters said as we were talking at different times. The way the stages were at the match it would be very hard to put a gap on anyone. The stages were in such a way it was for lack of a better word, easier, for most people to do 95% of their ability. And when many people are really good it's hard to build a gap.

 

Of course that includes myself as a participant. No one finishes well at Nats because of luck. The people at the top are there from the type of hard work other people can't or won't do.

[Chills1994]

21 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Not really.  It just strongly suggest that competitor's ammo that hit the popper was a lower power factor than chrono ammo.  If chrono ammo at ~120 PF knocks over the popper , then logically the competitor's ammo didn't even make 120 PF. 

 

 

 

Or whatever conditions that existed when the competitor shot it with X PF ammo were not the same conditions the RM shot it with ~ 120 PF ammo . 

[motosapiens]

20 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

And how many other competitors since the fall of 2008 have been P.F.’ed since then with absolutely NO change to the rules or calibration procedure?

 

I think the term 'popper-f**ed' is a little over-used. IMHO, if you chrono at 126 and hit poppers low at a big match on a breezy day and they go down for the RM but not you, the system is working as intended. The way the rules are written there is a clear incentive to run a little hotter ammo, which is why most people do so. If you choose not to do so and just hope for the best, you are taking a chance. More power tilts the odds in your favor.

Edited May 11, 2021 by motosapiens