2021 Locap Nats, what did you think?

[Dazhi]

This has been an recurring issue.  Last time Vogel lost national title due to a popper f*#k, he stopped shooting minor. 

I hope something changes this time. 

 

When steel does not fall with a hit in the calibration zone, take the remaining ammo from the magazine to chrono. If it makes PF, call a reshoot.  If not, mike. This also allows the match to continue to flow.  

[Dazhi]

36 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Chrono rounds used to be random. You’d get to a stage and an RO would pick people at random and pull some rounds from a magazine, or they would pick a dropped magazine off the ground and put those rounds in a bag. I guess at some point some match organizer figured it would be easier to just pull them from everyone at the start of the match.

 

The accuracy of the chrono itself is a whole different issue.

 

If there was any question about his rounds, the RO could have pulled some from his magazine and directed him to the chronograph.

 

Random chrono is still being done in major matches.  I have been randomly sampled a couple times in the past 2 years.  Dropped mags on some stages were taken by ROs for chrono. 

 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, aandabooks said:

Following this logic to the end would result in everyone winning a popper challenge since proper calibration ammo never makes minor PF.  

 

Not really.  It just strongly suggest that competitor's ammo that hit the popper was a lower power factor than chrono ammo.  If chrono ammo at ~120 PF knocks over the popper , then logically the competitor's ammo didn't even make 120 PF. 

 

 

 

[Dazhi]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Not really.  It just strongly suggest that competitor's ammo that hit the popper was a lower power factor than chrono ammo.  If chrono ammo at ~120 PF knocks over the popper , then logically the competitor's ammo didn't even make 120 PF. 

 

 

 

That's assuming the popper parts (hinges, screws etc.) were in exactly the same conditions when chrono and competitor ammo hit it.  Ultimately, maybe some kind of doppler radar chronograph placed down range that can track the velocity of every round is the only way to settle this.  Depending on dilapidated mechanical system that wears off over time to ensure PF is neither accurate nor reliable. 

[BritinUSA]

12 minutes ago, RJH said:

If chrono ammo at ~120 PF knocks over the popper , then logically the competitor's ammo didn't even make 120 PF. 

Correlation vs causation; There are many variables at play here, velocity being just one of them.
 

Assuming the root cause of the problem is velocity would be a fallacy.

 

Friction of moving parts, angle of the popper, angle that the bullet strikes the popper, density of the bullet (how much energy is imparted to the steel), are all factors. 

[edison]

120pf 115gr has more energy than 135pf 150gr.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by edison
Okay, I went & educated myself.

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, edison said:

120pf 115gr has more energy than 135pf 150gr.

Oh no, not this again.

[rowdyb]

Can we talk about this specific match rather than popper calibration generally?

[BritinUSA]

14 minutes ago, edison said:

120pf 115gr has more energy than 135pf 150gr.

 

Correct, and when the large US popper was introduced many competitors were running .45 calibre 185grains at 945fps for energy at 497…. .38 Super rounds (150 grain at 1,166 fps) energy=613

 

125grain at 1000 fps (for 125pf) energy=376

 

So the Poppers were designed around energy levels 497-613

Production rounds typically start at 376

 

See the problem ?

[rowdyb]

Regarding popper stuff I saw with my own eyes, 1. A calibration call won by a shooter on a large popper. 2. A large popper fall in the wind during a run, resulting in a re shoot. 3. A shooter reengage a popper saying it was better to shoot it twice than rely on what might happen in calibration. 4. Every popper I shot with 133pf ammo, and there were many at this match, fell with one hit.

[B_RAD]

2 hours ago, Dazhi said:

This has been an recurring issue.  Last time Vogel lost national title due to a popper f*#k, he stopped shooting minor. 

I hope something changes this time. 

 

When steel does not fall with a hit in the calibration zone, take the remaining ammo from the magazine to chrono. If it makes PF, call a reshoot.  If not, mike. This also allows the match to continue to flow.  

Best solution I’ve heard!

 

but I do have some questions. 
 

1.  How do you solve the issue with finding out if the popper is jacked up? RM should shoot it to see? Visually check it?

 

2. Hit in the calibration zone. Edge hits too? Now we’ll get judgment calls and we know the RO’s can’t be expected to make those. 
 

 

Still, I like this plan. 

 

Though, a hit, anywhere at all, no matter what, any evidence of a hit..... automatic reshoot. That’s the simplest to enforce  IMO. 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by B_RAD

[B_RAD]

28 minutes ago, edison said:

120pf 115gr has more energy than 135pf 150gr.

[rowdyb]

Things I liked from the match:

The weather was perfect

The ROs seemed happier and did more work re setting than usual.

Easy parking and letting competitors part at the top for C section

 

Things I feel neutral about:

It being live streamed

The vendor area

The time span from last prod nats to this one.

Most ROs not letting people film anywhere ahead of the rear most fault line.

Where the practice bay was.

 

Things I found concerning:

The matchbook being incomplete and changing close to the match.

The number and condition of the porta potties. 5? I walked into two that were 1" to over flowing full...

I would appreciate a blanket waiver for the safety card requirements. 

The number of bays with 2 stages in them.

I prefer to shoot just 2 days, not three. I know I am in the minority here.

The stages were more club level than national level. I had multiple conversations with "name" GMs where both voiced that impression and how it made it hard to really differentiate between the skill levels.

Nor were the arrays I feel set up to benefit a "low cap" focused match.

 

Odd things I witnessed:

A revolver blow up

A snap cap in a safe area

A belt with a gun in it, on the ground outside a porta potty. He was dqed upon exiting. 

A shooter forgetting their gun at the range overnight. 

Every 1911 shooter I watched at one time had a malfunction of sorts. 

 

Regarding my performance:

I had one miss, on a target 5 yards away.

I won two "that's a double" that were not originally called that way. Maybe looking at above should be 3?

My gun and gear worked perfectly.

I finished 34th overall in production. 

 

In balance it was a positive event and I would attend it again.

Edited May 11, 2021 by rowdyb

[haiedras]

3 hours ago, Bagellord said:

I shot and staffed it. Things I liked:

 

I really like the CMP range, they just need to expand (if possible) the number of bays.

A lot of the smaller stages were very interesting.

I did enjoy some of the larger field courses, despite what I am going to say in the next section.

 

Thinks I disliked:

It felt like a number of stages were really geared towards 10 round vs 8 round divisions. They were legal, but it made things more annoying that they needed to be.

Shooting box stages that aren't speed shoots are never acceptable at any level, in my opinion

Your opinion is invalid because you're a Master Boomer.

[C-Money]

I thought the match was very good for Single Stack, and a bit less for Production/L10 due to the stage construction. I shot SS major and several times wished I had two more rounds in the gun due to a different plan I could have run or more often due to poor shooting skill leading to a make up shot. 

 

I very much enjoyed the IPSC-style carnival stages as I feel this match is aimed at preparing competitors for the World Shoot where there will be lots of short stages with challenging targets or activator sequences. 

 

From a match official perspective, I didn't like having no paper backup to start, then having to go to them on day two. We should have had them from the start. Toilet facilities were an issue, as was lunch. It was late and honestly pretty poor quality. 

 

I liked the smaller squads and the late start each day (due to AL law). I didn't like AT ALL the way there were stages with multiple movers in a double bay and the squad was split for those bays. It led to staff resetting and backed up the match. Next time just put two whole squads there and stop this split squad stuff. That works for simple stages with no reset other than pasting and/or full staff reset.

 

I liked the vendor zone but wish CMP would expand the Action range so we can have a permanent bathroom facility, pavilion for eating, and a vendor area like at Universal. 

 

Overall it wasn't the best Nationals ever for me, but it was the best major I've been to at CMP. Hopefully things that were done right at this match continue to happen and we can improve the things which were sub-par.

 

One last thing: Large poppers are awesome and anyone who doesn't think so must have shot minor.

[BritinUSA]

39 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Things I feel neutral about:

It being live streamed

The vendor area

The time span from last prod nats to this one.

Most ROs not letting people film anywhere ahead of the rear most fault line.

Where the practice bay was.

There’s a whole thread on the live-streaming thing, I feel the same way about it as you do.

 

I take it the vendor area was sparse ? The only time I saw a really good vendor area was at 1998 Nationals in PASA Park. It was huge, and busy.

 

The RO response to filming has changed a lot over the past few years.  I mentioned this in another thread, they seem to take a very hard line on it now. I don’t know the reason for it, but something has definitely changed,

[BritinUSA]

3 minutes ago, Twinkie said:

One last thing: Large poppers are awesome and anyone who doesn't think so must have shot minor.

They were built for Major

[RJH]

Just now, BritinUSA said:

 

 

The RO response to filming has changed a lot over the past few years.  I mentioned this in another thread, they seem to take a very hard line on it now. I don’t know the reason for it, but something has definitely changed,

 

I worked a level 2 this weekend on a retreat stage so I obviously didn't want anyone filming in  the shooting area.  I suspect that other ROs that want people behind the rear fault line on a stage where people are moving down range is so that if a competitor comes back uprange for some reason there is less of a chance of a reshoot cause the camera guy is in the way.  Just speculating though.  But I have ROed shooters that forget something and explode back uprange and if I hadn't been on my toes expecting it or there was a person filming there would have been a reshoot

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Not really.  It just strongly suggest that competitor's ammo that hit the popper was a lower power factor than chrono ammo.  If chrono ammo at ~120 PF knocks over the popper , then logically the competitor's ammo didn't even make 120 PF. 

 

 

 

 

If I told you a friend of mine said two shooters in his squad had the same issue with the same popper does that suggest anything different?

[Givo08]

5 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

The other 2 mikes, 2 no shoots, 5 charlie, 1 delta cost that person the title just as much as getting hosed by a popper. 

 

Comments like this just show the lack of understanding some shooters have about how hit factor scoring works, and how you can still win a match with penalties and mistakes like these that are part of a shooters risk/reward strategy. Getting popper f*cked isn't really part of that risk/reward strategy.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Givo08

[rowdyb]

I did hear other complaints from people working g the match but si ce I didn't directly experience them no reason for me to pass them on. The ROs were more pleasant at this Nats than any other I've attended. 

 

A thing I forgot in to say was my drop in confidence when seeing paper back ups appear suddenly in the middle of the match. And one time hearing the score keeper say all my hits disappeared from the pad when he hit review. Made me very leery and I starting taking a cell phone pic of the tablet and the paper. A worry I would have preferred not to have.

[euxx]

4 hours ago, aandabooks said:

Following this logic to the end would result in everyone winning a popper challenge since proper calibration ammo never makes minor PF. 

 

At the same time, two out of 4 rounds they shot trough chrono for JJ were sub-minor...

[RJH]

29 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If I told you a friend of mine said two shooters in his squad had the same issue with the same popper does that suggest anything different?

Maybe those other shooters had sub minor ammo too....

 

 

12 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

At the same time, two out of 4 rounds they shot trough chrono for JJ were sub-minor...

Thanks for pointing this out

 

 

 

PS I am now out of this thread drift

Edited May 11, 2021 by RJH

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, RJH said:

Maybe those other shooters had sub minor ammo too....

 

Whats more likely, that everyone shoots sub minor or that the popper was jacked?

[C-Money]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Whats more likely, that everyone shoots sub minor or that the popper was jacked?

 

I've wondered this myself. Not about the popper, because match staff try their best and poppers are a mechanical device and can have variability which the calibration challenge addresses satisfactorily, but rather what ammo actually gets used during a match. The chrono procedure is so generous and hard to fail that it makes me think that some shooters don't even try at all to have ammo which makes PF. Certainly an advantage, until it isn't.

 

BTW I did see some popper issues in my RO match squad which got ironed out. The thing is, they aren't meant to be easy and are to reward power factor. What would be something to see but practicalities and expense limit it is inclinometers and bases to poppers so that they can be exactly calibrated for the correct PF. I saw it done in France but I can't see it being done in USPSA. I honestly wouldn't bother with it because it's more trouble than it's worth.

 

1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

I did hear other complaints from people working g the match but si ce I didn't directly experience them no reason for me to pass them on. The ROs were more pleasant at this Nats than any other I've attended. 

 

A thing I forgot in to say was my drop in confidence when seeing paper back ups appear suddenly in the middle of the match. And one time hearing the score keeper say all my hits disappeared from the pad when he hit review. Made me very leery and I starting taking a cell phone pic of the tablet and the paper. A worry I would have preferred not to have.

 

I think the competitors were more pleasant than any Nationals I've been to. It certainly made it easier to be nice to them.

 

The issues necessitating paper backups were out of the match staff's control as far as it was explained to me. Something about an iOS update and Practiscore making the app have odd behavior. It didn't affect my stage but I was glad we did paper and had a solid crew and consistent scoring ritual. I'm one of those traditionalists who favors paper over the pad due to it never crashing or being screwed up die to an update. It also feels permanent and significant to fill out that sheet with all the scores. A class act is to have custom sheets for every stage with individual targets to fill in.