boo radley Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 A lot of shooters, I'm noticing, have a pretty extensive routine they go through at LAMR. I mean, in some it strikes me as ridiculous, IMO: 3 slow-motion 'dry draws,' multiple sight pictures on different targets.....This easily takes longer than the actual *stage*! Does this bug anyone else? Quite a few, if not most, of these shooters are better than me, so it's certainly not for me to say this isn't a good idea, but it reminds me of those players in golf, who can't step up to the tee without "waggling" for 3 minutes, and going through a bunch of other nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 People do some strange things thats for sure. I had a shooter who insetred his mag and took it out about four time before he holstered. He then blew his reloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 I just want to say that I'm not one of those guys. Normally it takes me a lot longer to actually shoot the stage than the walkthrough takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 See rule 8.7.3 in the green book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 A lot of shooters, I'm noticing, have a pretty extensive routine they go through at LAMR. I mean, in some it strikes me as ridiculous, IMO: 3 slow-motion 'dry draws,' multiple sight pictures on different targets.....This easily takes longer than the actual *stage*!Does this bug anyone else? Quite a few, if not most, of these shooters are better than me, so it's certainly not for me to say this isn't a good idea, but it reminds me of those players in golf, who can't step up to the tee without "waggling" for 3 minutes, and going through a bunch of other nonsense. funniest thing i saw was many years ago at area 2 in san diego-i was ro'ing a guy who was doing the whole routine...practice draws, sight pictures, holster, close the eyes and mimic shooting every array in slo-mo, etc, then finally loads the gun. beep...draw...gun hits the dirt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 There is no reason to take a million sights pictures after LAMR. Rehearsal is for the walk through, on-deck time. A couple is OK..but 5 min is unnecessary. 8.7.3 applies to IPSC (US 8.7.3 is a big N/A) and I like to use my judgement as an RO. (If I have any!!) If it is holding up the squad, mention it to the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 There is no reason to take a million sights pictures after LAMR. Rehearsal is for the walk through, on-deck time. A couple is OK..but 5 min is unnecessary.8.7.3 applies to IPSC (US 8.7.3 is a big N/A) and I like to use my judgement as an RO. (If I have any!!) If it is holding up the squad, mention it to the shooter. OOPS!! My Bad. I, as an R.O., will tell them beforehand that they have approx. 5 secs. to take a sight picture if I've noticed them being excessive prior to. Drift: If I'm reading my Green Book correctly then, You are allowed to take a sight pic with a "LOADED" gun? = 8.7.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 Drift: If I'm reading my Green Book correctly then, You are allowed to take a sight pic with a "LOADED" gun? = 8.7.1 Bad form, but allowed . . . at least that was the interpretation I received at RO Level I training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 I, as an R.O., will tell them beforehand that they have approx. 5 secs. to take a sight picture if I've noticed them being excessive prior to. That's harsh!! Everyone should get the same treatment..no favoritism!! You are allowed to take a sight pic with a "LOADED" gun? = 8.7.1 Only if you let them. You don't have to..but if it goes bang... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 I, as an R.O., will tell them beforehand that they have approx. 5 secs. to take a sight picture if I've noticed them being excessive prior to. That's harsh!! Everyone should get the same treatment..no favoritism!! You are allowed to take a sight pic with a "LOADED" gun? = 8.7.1 Only if you let them. You don't have to..but if it goes bang... SRT, I can't resist ----- under what rule would you prevent a loaded sight picture? It's not my habit ---- but I stuffed and racked on a stage this past weekend, and took the sight picture I needed afterwards. It's not inherently unsafe, and if I pull the trigger before the beep, my match ends there....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I took a sight picture at LAMR one time...and saw a chuck of mud on the end of my muzzle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Yeah, I've started chats about the weather with people who take more then 30sec to get ready every time they come to the line. Just doing my part to keep people on their toes. I sometimes take a sight picture if the light is funny, but mostly I load and holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigLucky Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I usually just take the one sight picture to verify that my dot is on......... load from my barney mag......... verify that a round was actually chambered........... load Mag number 0...... holster and go. I however understand that whatever you need to do to get your mind right before you shoot a stage go for it........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I'm guilty of doing this sort of thing before. It was a habit I formed when I used to dry fire a lot. Looks good on video though. Makes me look as if I really know what I was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I like the 5 second "rule" I also like the idea of 8.7.3 being enforced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 While I don't do it, it's all about getting into a performance 'set' for the shooters that do it and do well (the others are probably imitating somebody good and wondering why it doesn't work for them). Different people need different levels and amounts of mental reset time, so I don't usually mind unless it's very excessive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have to say this attitude tends to bug me more than shooters who take excessive time. I've seen many RO's try to "push" shooters after the LAMR. As far as I'm concerned the RO should be pretty much out of it after LAMR unless there is a Safety violation or giving the start commands. I've got a great video from Area 2 a couple years back of an RO, after the LAMR command, telling my friend that if he pointed his muzzle over the berm while reloading that he would be DQ'd. He was loading just like he had been tought by Travis Thomasie, gun high and see the well. Well during the short conversation with the RO he had locked his gun in the Limcat holster. Gave himself a monster wedgie trying for several seconds to get the gun out. Most majors that I've been to seem to place a 30 second limit after the LAMR command. This seems fair to me. The only requirement should be that they announce this and not have it be arbitrary from RO to RO. And as far as enforcing 8.7.3, please no. At the World Shoot I thought it was a mess. It was not ruled on consistently. And from talking to several of the RO's they said they had discussed it before the match and couldn't come to a consensus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampleworks Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Anyone notice the one taking 15 sight pictures at LAMR is the same that stand back with thumb firmly placed in butt while everyone else pastes, paints, and sets steel? Given there's no reason to take 30 seconds at LAMR unless you're having some issue with a mag or the slide freezing up or something...if its 0 degrees out, I don't mind a shooter putting their hands on their hothands for a moment so its not like moving a chunk of ice on that trigger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
folsoml Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have one magazine that does not drop free, so I have to check to make sure it is in the mag pouch I will go to last. Then I have to crack my knuckles. Lastly, I have to wipe my hand free of any sweat or grease. I don't usually do a sight picture at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidball Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I've read this thread with great interest as both an RO and a shooter. My view is that following LAMR: Draw and take unloaded sight picture Load Barney bullet (if desired) Load mag Re-holster Run "program" one last time Deep breath Assume required start position It seems to me that no RO should interfere with the above or some variation. Even taking a sight picture on a couple of targets and dropping and reloading the first mag shouldn't be a problem as well as wiping hands, adjusting glasses, etc. Yes, it takes longer to get ready than to run the stage (at least I hope so!). Our sport requires executing complicated movements and actions at high speed (paraphrase of BE). This requires detailed mental preparation - most of which should be accomplished before going to the line. Is there a point where too much time is being taken at the line? Absolutely. It's a judgment call on the part of the RO. Unfortunately, good judgment is a very subjective concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I'm somewhat guilty of this. I find it slightly annoying, as well - also much like the golfer who waggles forever before swinging (ala Sergio Garcia). The Burner used to take an awful long time in his pre-shooting routine - to the point where a couple of the people I shot with would jokingly refer to folks who take an inordinate amount of time as "Burner wanna-bes". I find it extremely helpful to have a routine to follow before I shoot, much like I find it extremely helpful to have a pre-shot routine in golf. As shred says, it's a tool to help you mentally shift gears into performance mode. Everyone has their own combination that works for them - and the only way to discover it is to try things out. Lately, I've been trying out different things, and my routine has become slightly, uh, long. Not ridiculous, perhaps, but long... And it's not right, yet, either, but.... For me, it's generally: LAMR. Confirm body NPA on first array, and index on first target. Unholster, cock empty pistol and apply safety. Reholster and assume start position. Draw smoothly to first target, obtain perfect sight picture and hold ~ half a sec, pull trigger deliberately and smoothly. Index across first array smoothly and deliberately. Insert barney mag smoothly and deliberately, highlighting visual keys for reloading the gun. Remove barney mag, insert 1st mag, doing same thing. Press check. holster. Run stage mentally. Grip gun w/ strong hand, then move to start position. Repeat 1-2 times. Assume start position, open awareness, focus on start signal. Explode. If something is stupidly bad in there (totally blown dry draw, for instance), I stop and repeat that step without hesitation. Believe it or not, that generally takes less than 1 minute, as most of those actions are very quick. But, they're deliberate and purposeful. I don't stand there and repeat things a bunch, just run them through in a program. It tends to help relax my mind and get focused on what I'm about to do, and probably sounds similar to some routines you've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 (edited) Having ran a fair number of shooters in the past, I have never found it necessary to say a word to anyone about their prep time. Usually all this does is eat up more time as a discussion will begin about appropriate rules, the absence of rules, wanting to talk to the CRO or RM about the interupting of their prep time, etc. In the end you waste far more than you gain. If you really push it, all the shooter has to say is they are not ready and all you can do is move them down and bring the next shooter up. If you have a really sharp squad they will all do the same thing and you are back to the original guy and have thrown your whole schedule off. The key to running a stage is efficiency of the RO crew. Having a workable plan on who does what and keeping things moving will greatly enhance the clearance time of each shooter without rushing anyone. Simple things such as establishing a pattern and system for scoring targets. "We will start here and move to there as we score." I don't know how many times I have seen RO's walk back to the start target to begin scoring rather than starting their scoring from where the shooter finished and walking back to the start position. Unless there is some extreme course issues, a 2 minute clearance time from the last shot fired until the RO is giving the next LAMR is very easily accomplished. This allows plenty of squad clearance time without rushing any shooter. Treat people like you would like to be treated and you can't go too far wrong. Gary Edited November 9, 2005 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 The problem with trying to make rules that cover "excessive" prep time as opposed to using RO and peer pressure is that you could write a 100 page book and still not cover all the possibilities. reasonable changes based on too many circumstances. A stage shot in the snow/rain/extreme heat has challenges that a stage shot on a nice day does not. I think this is a situation in which USPSA needs to rely on the good judgement of it's RO's to treat each shooter fairly and deal with minor annoyance is a professional manner. Personally, i shoot so badly most of the time that unless I have a problem, its basically load and lets go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Well said Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Gary, +1 most shooters do not take that long..of course some do..but as an RO..I feel I am there to help them through the stage safely and to the best of their ability..it doesn't bother me to wait a minutes for someone to do their mental prep.. its all fun.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now