Sight Picture, Etc, A Lamr? Annoying?

[davidball]

I like very much what Gary said . . . and I can't think of a situation in my (more) limited RO experience where I have felt like I should have to ask a shooter "to get a move on," but, is there a situation where you can imagine it happening? For example, I once observed a shooter pretty much dry run (with movement) the entire course of fire (a field course) TWICE. It was the day before I was to shoot at a major match and I was just checking out the COFs. Then he got into the start box, inserted and dropped each mag he intended to use on the course several times each. Then there were practice draws. It actually got kinda funny . . . kinda like Ed Norton on the old Honeymooners (Jackie Gleason) show because it was so extreme. The RO let the shooter complete his complicated pre-run routine without interruption. Those of us who were observing just kinda grinned at the whole thing.

Here's my question for the ROs out there: Is there a situation where you HAVE nudged a shooter to get ready OR is there a situation where you anticipate you would (like the above - especially a shooter MOVING through a course of fire after the LAMR) OR does Gary's view cover it?

Edited November 10, 2005 by davidball

[zhunter]

While I perfectly understand Gary's points, I have an opinion of my own.

I think that excessive time at LAMR is showing NO respect for your fellow shooters. I live in Florida, and it is OFTEN hot down here. This excessive CRAP that goes on at LAMR should be done in practice BEFORE you get to a match. WE are there to shoot and have fun, NOT watch some jerk that has no care or respect for his fellow shooters!!!!

It is just like in golf, one slow guy in a foresome RUINS the flow for the entire group. NOW that "group" or squad has to speed up to keep pace with other squads to move from stage to stage. So in essence, the guy that holds up the WHOLE group is MORE important than the group as a whole? I THINK NOT!!!!

Sorry, but I have a very strong opinion of this one.

As a footnote:

Being on time to me is being 15 minutes early!!! I was raised to respect others, not to P!ss in their face!

[Gary Stevens]

Hi Dave, rule US 8.3.1.1 give you assistance with the shooter running through the course after LAMR. After this command the shooter may not move away from the start position without the prior approval of the RO.

I would only get involved if I believed that the shooter was so confused, perhaps due to being new, that they simply didn't understand the course of fire. Other than that, I let nature take its course. I guess there may be sometime that I would take more definitive action due to a shooter being above and beyond all that is reasonable, but it hasn't happened yet.

Gary

Edited November 10, 2005 by Gary Stevens

[.40AET]

US8.3.1.1 --I just realized that Gary beat me to the punch. Gotta stop taking phone calls while I'm not working.

[ima45dv8]

I like very much what Gary said . . . and I can't think of a situation in my (more) limited RO experience where I have felt like I should have to ask a shooter "to get a move on," but, is there a situation where you can imagine it happening? For example, I once observed a shooter pretty much dry run (with movement) the entire course of fire (a field course) TWICE. It was the day before I was to shoot at a major match and I was just checking out the COFs. Then he got into the start box, inserted and dropped each mag he intended to use on the course several times each. Then there were practice draws. It actually got kinda funny . . . kinda like Ed Norton on the old Honeymooners (Jackie Gleason) show because it was so extreme. The RO let the shooter complete his complicated pre-run routine without interruption. Those of us who were observing just kinda grinned at the whole thing.

Here's my question for the ROs out there: Is there a situation where you HAVE nudged a shooter to get ready OR is there a situation where you anticipate you would (like the above - especially a shooter MOVING through a course of fire after the LAMR) OR does Gary's view cover it?

I can't define a clear set of criteria that I would use to decide it's time to nudge the shooter along. I guess it's like porn and rednecks -- I can't define them, but I know 'em when I see 'em.

On just a couple of occasions I've felt the need to say something to move things along. John Amidon had an excellent recommendation in the Level I class I attended. Gently ask, with a warm smile, "Now, could you maybe show us the short version of Load And Make Ready?"

[Flexmoney]

Here's my question for the ROs out there: Is there a situation where you HAVE nudged a shooter to get ready OR is there a situation where you anticipate you would (like the above - especially a shooter MOVING through a course of fire after the LAMR) OR does Gary's view cover it?

I think Gary's view covers it pretty well...especially when you factor in the rule he just quoted that doesn't allow the shooter to leave the start position without permission.

If a shooter is taking an extra 30 seconds or so, it often is because they haven't figured out what they are getting ready to do. I'd rather give them that extra bit of time. It's a safety valve. They are going to be running around with a loaded gun soon.

zhunter brings up a good point...you don't want to be standing around any longer than you have too. But, there is so much other stuff going on that can get a squad off a stage that I don't sweat the guy that has, as his vice, a long LAMR routine.

...as long as they help out in other ways.

[AWLAZS]

Something to think about when you are standing there watching the shooter go through his LAMR dance. Not only are you a RO at some point you also are a shooter who may need a sextra second or two.

I think its range set up pasting and score keeping more then the shooters dance that slows a squad down. I know when I have an efficent squad its way easier and quicker for me as the RO.

[davidball]

Upon further review . . . 1) the event I described with the shooter walking through the course occurred under the red rulebook . . . I don't remember if there was a similar provision or not and 2) he MAY have done the "walking" BEFORE the LAMR, but it was certainly AFTER he was called to the line, which, in my view (although perhaps not technically / legally / by the rule) still falls under the supervision of the RO as far as match management goes - which is the real underlying issue. All of the loading / unloading mags, practice draws, etc. was definitely after the LAMR.

I can't define a clear set of criteria that I would use to decide it's time to nudge the shooter along. I guess it's like porn and rednecks -- I can't define them, but I know 'em when I see 'em.

Excellent metaphor . . . Oliver Wendell Holmes? . . . back to relying on the judgment of the RO . . .

[JFD]

While working my stage at the 2004 SC Sectional, I was starting to wonder if Max Michel Jr was EVER going to stop dry firing the stage. Nobody took that much time the entire match.

I was new to bigger matches, so I wasn't sure if this was normal or not.

Looking back, I realized that Max ended up with an unusual poor result on the stage, so it was obvious that something just didn't "click" when he stepped into the box. He was trying to get things right in his mind, and in this case he never did. The RO never bugged him about it.

He had his girlfriend there at the time, so nobody was complaining if the squad hung around a little longer

Other than that, I've never seen anyone I thought was taking way too much time, including MM the following year. I don't think it's a problem.

[Gary Stevens]

If your stage was one of those "Have I shot everything or not?" stages that SC is so famous for, that I love and hate at the same time, I can understand his confusion

Edited November 10, 2005 by Gary Stevens

[38supPat]

I agree with everything Gary has said, in fact if an RO attempts to rush me, my LAMR procedure becomes A LOT longer. And with a couple of RO's I know this leads to a predictable beep. They get so wound up at waiting for me, that I'm guaranteed to get a areyoureadystandbyBEEP...guess at what point I start my draw.

After the LAMR the range is the shooters to do with as he pleases. His time is his own. Let him/her be.

[George]

After the LAMR the range is the shooters to do with as he pleases. His time is his own. Let him/her be.

Bigtime +1. If the shooter doesn't do well after an extended LAMR, so what. When it's your turn, do whatever makes you feel good, but don't impress your needs/feelings on this upon others unless you want that to be a two way street ;-)

--

Regards,

[JFD]

Gary

The stage was "Mass Confusion", so you might be right.

Like I said, these days I can understand what he was doing. At the time I was too new to grasp Max was thinking on a much different level than I was the day before.

This year I think Knight's Day (stage 7) was THE memory stage of the match. Mine was stage 8, and no memory required I'm embarassed to mention how long it took me to come up with a plan for stage 7.

[ima45dv8]

Gary

The stage was "Mass Confusion", so you might be right.

Like I said, these days I can understand what he was doing. At the time I was too new to grasp Max was thinking on a much different level than I was the day before.

This year I think Knight's Day (stage 7) was THE memory stage of the match. Mine was stage 8, and no memory required I'm embarassed to mention how long it took me to come up with a plan for stage 7.

I remember that stage. I had a great plan for "Knight's Day". I think it was 3 positions and then UASC. My great plan promptly went to sh!t when I had a piece of hot brass bounce off the parapet and land down the front of my shirt. Listening to my skin sizzle was distracting!

Damn good looking stage, though. (Won the contest for stage decoration, right?)

[Ron Ankeny]

I agree with davidball, Gary, Flex, Pat... I have never understood why anyone would become impatient with a routine like davidball outlined in his first post. Also, I like to RO shooters who have a routine because they are predictable and I know all they want or need from the RO are the standard range commands word for word.

Edited November 14, 2005 by Ron Ankeny

[Carmoney]

Believe it or not, that generally takes less than 1 minute, as most of those actions are very quick.

Ever stop to calculate the impact of a full minute of LAMR ritual on the rest of the squad?

At a match like the USPSA Nationals, with 18 shooters per squad each shooting 18 stages, if everyone insisted on taking that much time to get ready, that's 5 hours and 24 minutes of diddling.

[SRT Driver]

The stage I worked at the Nats this year ran a squad thru in an average of 35 min for 18 per squad. Roughly, 2min a shooter from LAMR until the next shooter stepped in the box.

It was not overly complicated but there was an activator /swinger etc and the infamous 25 yard US popper. The times ranged from 8 sec to 40 + sec with 10-12 being a nice run.

Even the revo shooters didn't take much time and it was tricky for them. (And a couple came up with some really radical ways of doing it!!)

At least for me, if I don't know what I'm going to do by the time I step in the box..I'm screwed. And plan B sux.

[davidball]

Believe it or not, that generally takes less than 1 minute, as most of those actions are very quick.

Ever stop to calculate the impact of a full minute of LAMR ritual on the rest of the squad?

At a match like the USPSA Nationals, with 18 shooters per squad each shooting 18 stages, if everyone insisted on taking that much time to get ready, that's 5 hours and 24 minutes of diddling.

I like Carmoney's analytic approach, but I don't think we can draw any conclusions from just the "5 hours and 24 minutes of diddling."

For Limited, Nationals was 2 1/2 days scheduled time or 1500 minutes. Here's how I broke it down:

Total minutes 1500

Lunches (2 x 60 minutes) 120

Breaks (2 x 70 minutes) 140

Read Descriptions (18 x 4 minutes)* 72

Walk Throughs (18 x 5 minutes)* 90

LAMR per Carmoney (1 minute each) 324

Score / Paste (18 x 18 x 2 minutes)* 648

Shooting time (18 x 18 x .3 minutes) 106

--------------------------------------------------

Total 1500

* Includes chrono

Of course, all of this is rough estimates. But it appears 1 minute for LAMR isn't too far out of line and I think the average is well below. As has been pointed out by minds better and more experience than mine, the real time intensive activity appears to be scoring and pasting

Edited November 15, 2005 by davidball

[Carmoney]

Interesting.

When I was thinking about this issue, I glanced up at the clock on the wall, and sat there and watched as one full minute went by, and imagined I was waiting for some poor soul to go through a full minute's worth of airgunning, drawing, dry-snapping, adjusting, toweling, sight-blacking, and assorted other various mental walk-through ritual.

(I say poor soul because all he's accomplishing past about the 15-second mark is making himself even more nervous and jumpy and generally screwing with his own head....or so it seems to me.)

[SRT Driver]

(I say poor soul because all he's accomplishing past about the 15-second mark is making himself even more nervous and jumpy and generally screwing with his own head....or so it seems to me.)

There is a difference between a ritual and meaningful preparation.

[Ron Ankeny]

I can count the number of shooters I have seen take a full minute at LAMR on one hand. Maybe some folks are creating demons where none exist?

My mental game needs enough work without letting some guy diddling around in Box A get to me, and I am about as anal as they come.

[Cuz]

(the others are probably imitating somebody good and wondering why it doesn't work for them).

Damn Shred. I was planning to use that tactic in place of actually practicing. I thought for sure it would work. Now you've gone and ruined it

-Cuz

[mactiger]

This subject always comes up in Level One RO seminars. We teach "letting the competitor prepare at their own pace", so naturally the questions follows: "How long is too long in the start box?" My answer is this: If the competitor appears to be unsure or not ready, then you might want to ask if they are ready to go. However, if their "IPSC Dance" (prep rituals have been called the 'dance of the IPSC shooter'), is just a little prolonged, then don't interfere. As Ron stated, a minute is a very long time when you are just waiting. However, for every competitor that takes say, 45 seconds or even longer "making ready", there are 15 that take about 10 or 15 seconds, so in the long run, it's a non-issue, at least for the Range Officer. Now, if the squad doesn't like it, well, that's something they need to deal with as a squad. Range Officers are tasked with keeping the stage moving at a reasonable pace, and 5 minutes per competitor is the normally allotted time for a stage. It's been my experience, though, that even very complicated or high-round stages will be cleared within 2-3 minutes--that's from "LAMR" to "LAMR". Most of them don't take that long to shoot--it's the scoring and reset that take the most time. So, in a 5 minute schedule, there is extra time built in, especially with a well-organized and efficient range crew, so the few competitors that seem to take a little longer to get ready don't really affect the stage schedule at all.

Nationals at PASA this year was a good example. The squads were huge (oversold match), but even so, almost every stage was running ahead of schedule, while there were a few that were running on schedule. None of them were behind, unless it was due to mechanical difficulties.

Troy

Edited November 16, 2005 by mactiger

[richardschennberg]

Remember the priorities:

1. Be safe

2. Have fun

3. Win (or shoot well for us non-GMs)

Unless the schedule is tight and you HAVE to rush the shooter, let him be.

1. He knows the clock is not running until the buzzer goes off, and only runs until the last shot. Many shooters forget this - not necessarily unsafe, but why rush when you don't have to?

2. If he's having fun with his warm-up dance, let it go.

3. Rehearsal before LAMR is better, but if he didn't accomplish this beforehand, better late than never.