Does a Tungsten guide rod cause muzzle dip?

[j1b]

2 hours ago, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: I have played around with different setups with my P320 X5 non legion. The best setup I have used is steel guide rod, 12.5lb ISMI 1911 recoil spring, legion grip and 124 grain bullets. I sold the tungsten guide rod I had and the tungsten grip weight. Use a timer and look on paper to see what gives you the best results. Make sure you have big transitions in the drill you use. Super heavy is not always the best setup. Thanks, Eric

This brings up yet another factor in your decision making process that influences essentially everything. And it's been brought up before, this post was just a reminder.

 

Aircooled shoots 124 gr. Many people shoot 115 gr. or 124gr. I personally shoot 147gr. There are so many factors to know what you like or don't like as it relates to all of this and IMO none of these decisions are static or in a vacuum.

 

Generally speaking when I used to shoot open I liked lighter bullets (almost always 115 but sometimes 124) with slower powders that packed the case to the gills. I was striving for a load that worked the comp about as hard as it could work (reference the 9X25 conversation I talk about above)

 

In production I like the softer feel of the 147. That along with the TXG grip and tungsten guide rod make a very soft gun (to me). It isn't snappy coming back and the slide return isn't too whippy for me. If I would take one more additional step (which I may, or may not) it might be to see if a stock lightened slide might not improve that even a little more (the slide return action that is). 

 

So there's a lot of variables in almost all decisions. I guess that's my "Captain Obvious" comment. 

[CHA-LEE]

The last thing I want to point out in this thread is that being able to observe and feel the differences in changing weight in the gun (sprung or unsprung) is directly correlated to how good/bad you grip the gun. If you have a poor grip (grip angles or pressure) and the gun is moving excessively within your hands, then many of these small weight changes will likely not be felt or observed. Basically put, when you view the slow motion video footage of your testing and see the gun moving within your hands then you need to work on improving your grip before worrying about tuning springs, weight, ammo, etc. 

 

The below example video shows me shooting three different Limited guns with major power factor 40 cal ammo. This is a very good example of a solid grip that doesn't allow the gun to move WITHIN my hands. There is still gun movement/displacement as the shot fires and the slide cycles, but my hands and the frame/grip of the gun are moving as one solid unit.

 

 

[j1b]

17 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

The last thing I want to point out in this thread is that being able to observe and feel the differences in changing weight in the gun (sprung or unsprung) is directly correlated to how good/bad you grip the gun. If you have a poor grip (grip angles or pressure) and the gun is moving excessively within your hands, then many of these small weight changes will likely not be felt or observed. Basically put, when you view the slow motion video footage of your testing and see the gun moving within your hands then you need to work on improving your grip before worrying about tuning springs, weight, ammo, etc. 

 

The below example video shows me shooting three different Limited guns with major power factor 40 cal ammo. This is a very good example of a solid grip that doesn't allow the gun to move WITHIN my hands. There is still gun movement/displacement as the shot fires and the slide cycles, but my hands and the frame/grip of the gun are moving as one solid unit.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand how this works through the different configurations of the gun and thus if a tungsten guide rod is of benefit. 

 

You shoot your practice gun, primary match gun, and back up match gun very similarly. I would guess they are set up fairly similarly. So that makes sense. 

 

There are obviously a ton of factors involved here. Grip, grip tension, ammo, recoil springs, barrel, guide rod, TXG grip, regular grip, full mag, 10 round mag etc. etc. etc.

 

And there is evidence that even the top shooters fiddle with their guns a little as they come up with new and "better" ways to improve equipment. For me I will always contend that it's the Indian, not the arrow, (wait, can I say that these days???) that makes a match. I've always believed that and I always will. That said, it never hurts to have a little better arrow if you can get one.

 

J

[CHA-LEE]

On 2/13/2021 at 5:27 AM, j1b said:

I'm not sure I understand how this works through the different configurations of the gun and thus if a tungsten guide rod is of benefit. 

 

You shoot your practice gun, primary match gun, and back up match gun very similarly. I would guess they are set up fairly similarly. So that makes sense. 

 

There are obviously a ton of factors involved here. Grip, grip tension, ammo, recoil springs, barrel, guide rod, TXG grip, regular grip, full mag, 10 round mag etc. etc. etc.

 

And there is evidence that even the top shooters fiddle with their guns a little as they come up with new and "better" ways to improve equipment. For me I will always contend that it's the Indian, not the arrow, (wait, can I say that these days???) that makes a match. I've always believed that and I always will. That said, it never hurts to have a little better arrow if you can get one.

 

J

 

The video I posted isn't intended to show the "Difference" between using a different weight guide rod. The purpose is to show an effective grip which keeps the gun from moving WITHIN my hands. How much the gun physically displaces doesn't matter in this scenario. The whole gun AND hands displacing as one unit is what matters. Most of the people that want to change gun springs, slide weight, or frame weight don't have a grip that is effective enough to keep the gun from moving around within their hands. For those people its an exercise in futility because they need to fix their poor grip before they will really be able to see the minute differences these tuning changes make.

 

Stating this fact is likely going to cause some butt hurt for some as nobody likes to think that their grip is less than perfect. But facts are facts. If you want to maximize the spring or weight configuration of your pistol you must also maximize your grip on the gun.

[edison]

I'm envious of how solid your wrist looks shooting major. The gun doesn't move in my hand, but my wrist keeps flexing.

[j1b]

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

The video I posted isn't intended to show the "Difference" between using a different weight guide rod. The purpose is to show an effective grip which keeps the gun from moving WITHIN my hands. How much the gun physically displaces doesn't matter in this scenario. The whole gun AND hands displacing as one unit is what matters. Most of the people that want to change gun springs, slide weight, or frame weight don't have a grip that is effective enough to keep the gun from moving around within their hands. For those people its an exercise in futility because they need to fix their poor grip before they will really be able to see the minute differences these tuning changes make.

 

Stating this fact is likely going to cause some butt hurt for some as nobody likes to think that their grip is less than perfect. But facts are facts. If you want to maximize the spring or weight configuration of your pistol you must also maximize your grip on the gun.

That's a fair point. I think it supports, to some degree, the bigger point that there are TONS of factors in all of this. I agree a good grip is foundational, along with plenty of other skills to see some success at this game. 

 

[rootacres]

Not in my experience  

[rocket99]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:26 AM, Aircooled6racer said:

Hello: I have played around with different setups with my P320 X5 non legion. The best setup I have used is steel guide rod, 12.5lb ISMI 1911 recoil spring, legion grip and 124 grain bullets. I sold the tungsten guide rod I had and the tungsten grip weight. Use a timer and look on paper to see what gives you the best results. Make sure you have big transitions in the drill you use. Super heavy is not always the best setup. Thanks, Eric

This 100%

[TONY BARONE]

On 2/14/2021 at 3:46 PM, CHA-LEE said:

 

The video I posted isn't intended to show the "Difference" between using a different weight guide rod. The purpose is to show an effective grip which keeps the gun from moving WITHIN my hands. How much the gun physically displaces doesn't matter in this scenario. The whole gun AND hands displacing as one unit is what matters. Most of the people that want to change gun springs, slide weight, or frame weight don't have a grip that is effective enough to keep the gun from moving around within their hands. For those people its an exercise in futility because they need to fix their poor grip before they will really be able to see the minute differences these tuning changes make.

 

Stating this fact is likely going to cause some butt hurt for some as nobody likes to think that their grip is less than perfect. But facts are facts. If you want to maximize the spring or weight configuration of your pistol you must also maximize your grip on the gun.

This. Watch Robert Vogel shoot a stock Glock and you realize it is all about grip and upper body strength.

[cheby]

29 minutes ago, TONY BARONE said:

This. Watch Robert Vogel shoot a stock Glock and you realize it is all about grip and upper body strength.

Except it is not a stock glock. It has a WML filled with lead attached when he shoots limited 

[bimmer1980]

48 minutes ago, cheby said:

Except it is not a stock glock. It has a WML filled with lead attached when he shoots limited 

He became IPSC Production World Champion under the old very strikt rules, with a stock Glock 17. (heavy trigger)

[rooster]

Take all the springs and guide rods you want to test and go to the range and shoot 2 shots on a paper target as fast as you can at about 7 yards. Whatever is your best group is your setup. As long as your gun runs.

[rpm8300]

I dont think it contributes to muzzle dip but as noted, think of changes like guide rods as a percentage of the existing weight/mass of the system you have in your hands.  The X5 Legion is pretty heavy as it is so 2 to 3 additional oz going to a tungsten guide rod is a small fraction of the overall system.  If you have a stock Glock 17 that is really light in general, it will have more of an effect.  Additionally, the X5 and guns like CZs and Tanfos have metal frames that extend all the way to the end of the reciprocating mass.

[Tango]

since that part does not reciprocate, it will reduce the ACCELERATION of both the upward and downward movement of the gun, and so it does not contribute to the dip

 

the upward movement is caused by the recoil, downward movement is due to recoil spring

[gnappi]

We used to call that "negative recoil" I never witnessed it

 

[mrvip27]

Anyone know how much weight over stock the springier precision or glock store tungsten guide rod are?

[echotango]

49 minutes ago, mrvip27 said:

Anyone know how much weight over stock the springier precision or glock store tungsten guide rod are?

Factory is 1.4oz. Springer is 3.2oz and w74 is 2.7oz. 

[vluc]

I don't know, Springer says their stainless steel glock guide rods are 12.00 ounces on their site. LOL

[echotango]

12 hours ago, vluc said:

I don't know, Springer says their stainless steel glock guide rods are 12.00 ounces on their site. LOL

Sig guide rods, not glocks. Glock store sells a guide rod for sig.  And I doubt it is 12oz for a glock.  Must be a typo.  

Edited May 12, 2021 by echotango

[vluc]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:12 AM, echotango said:

Sig guide rods, not glocks. Glock store sells a guide rod for sig.  And I doubt it is 12oz for a glock.  Must be a typo.  

Yeah, I figured as much but found it humorous to add to the heavy guide rod conversation (it was for Glock

SKU: SP0510  WEIGHT: 12.00 Ounces)   1.2 ounces maybe, not 12...but then again, we now have a brass WML that is a whopping 7 ounces.

[echotango]

1 hour ago, vluc said:

Yeah, I figured as much but found it humorous to add to the heavy guide rod conversation (it was for Glock

SKU: SP0510  WEIGHT: 12.00 Ounces)   1.2 ounces maybe, not 12...but then again, we now have a brass WML that is a whopping 7 ounces.