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While doing doubles drills, I noticed that there is a bit of a delay at the "peak" of my sights lifting, before they start to go back down. Now, the sights do seem to settle back into alignment on their own, without any (conscious) input on my part. I'm just wondering if this delay is normal. It feels as if I fire, the sights lift, there's a pause at the top, then this invisible force pushes the gun back down. I guess I'll need to ask someone to take a slowmo video next time I'm at the range, which might show things more clearly. It also feels like during recoil, my entire arm is lifting, but I can't be sure.

 

But perhaps based on what i've described, someone can diagnose exactly what the issue is. Stance? Recoil spring? I'm crushing the gun pretty hard with my support hand so I don't think it's a lack of grip strength itself.

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Some slight pause at peak is normal, but how long is the question.  Here are a few things I'd test:    

Try the next heavier weight recoil spring.  You want to minimize that pause, but don't want to see a dip below POA.

Add more weight to the frame.

Tense your biceps, triceps, shoulders for more control during recoil.  

Consider changes to the load you shoot.  Lower PF (if possible) or use a faster powder with a heavier bullet.

Edited by Yeti
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I don't think it matters what your sights do while they lift. Do they return to where they were when the shot broke?

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

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The sights must slow down, stop, then start moving in the opposite direction. If you're seeing this, you are way ahead of the curve since that's all you need to diagnose and improve your shooting. Also, what your sights are doing is not a problem. They must do it - slow down, stop, reverse. 

 

At a glance, you don't have a problem. What are your splits? 

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My question would be what kind of splits and accuracy are you getting at what distances? and how does that compare to your goals? 

 

I ask these questions because they are all that matters, honestly I don't care what my front sight does during recoil, it leaves the line of sight I have with the target and then comes back, I think it goes mostly straight up and down but it could turn a cartwheel at the top as long as it comes back to where I expect in a timely manner. 

 

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Shot some more doubles on Saturday. I used a bit more forward lean stance-wise, and made a conscious effort to crush more with my support hand and loosen a bit with my dominant hand. Couldn't measure splits because I was on a line with 5 other shooters, but at 10m, I was making consistent A-zone hits with at least 0.30 splits. 

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Stop watching the sights, it is not telling you anything more than you already know. If the sights are returning to the original point of aim, that's all you need to know. I don't care if the sights go up and do a figure 8 as long as they return to original point of aim. From the time the gun goes "BANG" til you're ready for it to go "BANG" again, the sights are meaningless.

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On 8/3/2020 at 2:01 PM, Blackstone45 said:

Shot some more doubles on Saturday. I used a bit more forward lean stance-wise, and made a conscious effort to crush more with my support hand and loosen a bit with my dominant hand. Couldn't measure splits because I was on a line with 5 other shooters, but at 10m, I was making consistent A-zone hits with at least 0.30 splits. 

That sounds pretty good, especially if you are really consistent as in you can see and guarantee the second shot, not merely squeezing the trigger and counting on your grip to produce the consistent second shot. (Important: we are not discussing predictive vs. reactive shooting and how it works on short splits, merely what you see on that second shot.) So, if you see the sights on the second shot and can call it as bad/good, then you're where you need to be, maybe just need to be a tad faster, say around .25, but you didn't measure so you might already be there. 

 

Just remember that even if you bring that split at that distance to, say, 0.20, you are saving 0.10 per split which is only one second on 10 targets (and these are very fast splits at 10 yards). Unless you're within that 1 second of the top guys in the world, splits are not your primary concern. 

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3 hours ago, Dranoel said:

Stop watching the sights, it is not telling you anything more than you already know. If the sights are returning to the original point of aim, that's all you need to know. I don't care if the sights go up and do a figure 8 as long as they return to original point of aim. From the time the gun goes "BANG" til you're ready for it to go "BANG" again, the sights are meaningless.

True, but there is a big caveat... Not watching the sights and not being able to see the sights during recoil are fundamentally different concepts. 

 

You have to be at the level where you can see the sights in recoil before you choose not to watch them in recoil. The progress with sights is usually: (1) can't see the sights at the moment a shot is fired, (2) sees the sights when the shot is fired, (3) sees the sights in recoil at some point, (4) sees the sights during recoil (blur, detected as motion), (5) chooses which parts of this information to use for efficient shooting. It's awfully easy to confuse stage (2) with stage (5) because in both cases it's only about the sights being on target. 

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2 hours ago, IVC said:

 not merely squeezing the trigger and counting on your grip to produce the consistent second shot. 

My understanding though, is that eventually that is the stage you want to be at? Where you aren't waiting to confirm the sight picture before you squeeze off the next shot? I think this is what you mean by predictive, as opposed to reactive shooting?

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Roughly speaking, the difference is that you choose to fire two shots so on the second shot you count on your grip to return the gun to the original position AND (this is very important) you recognize the second sight picture even if you didn't use it to make the decision to shoot off of it. If you skip the latter part, then it's what an inexperienced shooter would do by having one sight picture, squeezing the trigger twice and having no idea where the second shot went. 

 

I don't know to what degree there is a consensus about the second shot on a sub-20 splits, but the way I see it is that there is no time to make the decision based on the second sight picture, even if it is critical to acquire it (if nothing else, because all the shooting is about seeing the sights at all times). The decisions is made based on your knowledge where the gun will be, which is a relatively simple "feel" matter, so you know that your sights will be in the vicinity of the good shot and you just confirm that on the second shot, possibly firing a make-up if you didn't see what you needed to see.

 

I don't believe there is enough time for the full thought process of seeing the picture, saying "that's good enough, I'll take it," then firing the shot. If it were all about decision making after you see the sights return, you could pick up any gun and shoot a Bill drill without obtaining the feel for it by shooting it a few times. This would be because if there is no predictive component about where the gun will be, it doesn't matter whether you are or aren't familiar with the gun. 

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This is something after taking a lengthy break from shooting that I am personally experimenting with as my first shots are accurately placed but second shots aren't so much. What I've come up with so far is if we are paying such great attention and trying to consciously make the decision to fire the second shot at the perfect time then it can introduce a flinch, trigger jerk, recoil anticipation or just trying to muscle the gun around so much that alot of tension is introduced into our shooting. That second shot has to be a predetermined shot to be fired but the actual physical action has to be subconscious once you get under a certain amount of time (quickish splits). Then comes into thought that if we don't like what we saw when that shot went off then the subconscious needs to make it up which has to be a predetermined contingency plan also. Alot going on in that very short period of time if we're trying to react to everything we are seeing on a conscious level. 

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Posted (edited)

Agreed, it's important to recognise the second sight picture so you can call whether you need a makeup shot, and whether you need to adjust your grip because the gun isn't returning to the original position.

 

I don't think it's possible, with PF >125 ammo, to get a good Bill Drill time if you're confirming each sight picture before taking the shot.

 

I've also been playing with relaxing the shooting hand more, and it really has helped cut down on the amount of trigger jerking. 

Edited by Blackstone45
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One of the most difficult things to do is not over correct your recoil management. Have someone help load your mags and put dummy rounds scattered throughout the mag. Then shoot controlled pairs. You will probably find that you are driving the gun down past the intended spot on the target when you get a click instead of a boom. It’s a great drill taught by the Tactical Performance Center.

 

Just my humble opinion, you have to see your sights on every shot. It doesn’t matter if you are shooting .12 splits or .20 or .30 splits. The second shot has to be confirmed with the sights. If you train consistently and work hard, you will see your sights every time. Just like getting a sub 1 second draw, it takes time and practice, but then it will be come easier and easier. Same concept with seeing your front sights the whole time. The only question is, are you seeing an acceptable sight picture. Refer to Max Michael for the different acceptable sight pictures. He had some great videos on YouTube.

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  • 3 months later...

Revisiting this thread because I have some video footage at last!

 

 

I've edited in some helpful lines. But as you can see, after the recoil cycle, my gun ends up higher than it started, and I have to bring it back down. This is probably what was happening when I talked about the 'delay' at the peak of recoil. What's the cause of this - not leaning forwards enough?

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There can be a fine line between strong grip and locked wrists, and being tense. If parts of your body are tense, that can lead to jumpy and inconsistent movement of the pistol.

 

... just a thought. Perhaps worth contemplating?

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18 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

Revisiting this thread because I have some video footage at last!

 

 

I've edited in some helpful lines. But as you can see, after the recoil cycle, my gun ends up higher than it started, and I have to bring it back down. This is probably what was happening when I talked about the 'delay' at the peak of recoil. What's the cause of this - not leaning forwards enough?

 

Your elbows are, IMO, too straight and too close to being locked.  Watch from 00:03 to 00:06 and you can see the energy from recoil almost stop cold at your elbows.

 

Because your elbows are so straight, camming the wrists downwards to engage the muscles and tendons that lock it would point your pistol too far down.

 

I would put more bend in the elbows which will let you add more downwards camming into your wrists while keeping POA where it needs to be.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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6 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Your elbows are, IMO, too straight and too close to being locked.  Watch from 00:03 to 00:06 and you can see the energy from recoil almost stop cold at your elbows.

 

Because your elbows are so straight, camming the wrists downwards to engage the muscles and tendons that lock it would point your pistol too far down.

 

I would put more bend in the elbows which will let you add more downwards camming into your wrists while keeping POA where it needs to be.

Ok, I'll try that. Should I flare my elbows outwards a bit more too?

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35 minutes ago, Blackstone45 said:

Should I flare my elbows outwards a bit more too?

 

I would not do that.  If you need more inwards force into the gun, I'd make it comes from the forearm muscles that rotate the wrist.  That even might have the side effect of stiffening the wrist joint even more.

 

I'd take a look at grip videos put out by the Tactical Performance Center.  Their concepts helped me a lot.

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