Dhudgins525

This is something after taking a lengthy break from shooting that I am personally experimenting with as my first shots are accurately placed but second shots aren't so much. What I've come up with so far is if we are paying such great attention and trying to consciously make the decision to fire the second shot at the perfect time then it can introduce a flinch, trigger jerk, recoil anticipation or just trying to muscle the gun around so much that alot of tension is introduced into our shooting. That second shot has to be a predetermined shot to be fired but the actual physical action has to be subconscious once you get under a certain amount of time (quickish splits). Then comes into thought that if we don't like what we saw when that shot went off then the subconscious needs to make it up which has to be a predetermined contingency plan also. Alot going on in that very short period of time if we're trying to react to everything we are seeing on a conscious level.

@SilverBolt I completely trust my sights and haven't looked for holes in targets in a long time as I have learned the meaning of shot calling but this process that I mentioned above was my eyes and body doing it automatically I believe which was faster than the shots were being recorded by my conscious mind. Since posting this I have done some extensive research based on @chrisstophere advice and everything he is saying seems to be spot on. Since this posting I've live fired every day and with a little effort I have been able to recreate and get in this zone fairly easily.

@chrisstophere awesome yes you definitely seem to understand what I was trying to convey and I definitely like to hear what you're telling me. This is all stuff that I've been working hard on but wasn't making much progress until I increased the frequency of live fire. It just really caught me off guard with the way it happened because I wasn't expecting it. Yea I've seen the brass eject before but it was back when I didn't believe my vision was good enough or quick enough to see it and I had to prove to myself that I could. To be seeing it now without trying is a great feeling.

@chrisstophere is it reasonable to believe that if I keep doing this that my conscious vision will catch up? @Blackstone45 that sir is a great question that I would really like for someone to answer. I've always been told that calling your shots is crucial and i am wondering if what I'm going through right now is the difference between what Steve Anderson calls shot calling vs bullseye mode.

So the search function yielded zero results for me so I apologize in advance if this has been discussed a couple of thousand times already but anyway here goes. So I've recently increased the frequency of live fire practice not necessarily the number of rounds fired but just how often I fire the gun every week in hopes of making the gun firing or going off more normal and in the last few days I've started to see the brass leaving the gun without looking for it and my hits on target are perfectly acceptable but it's like I'm not consciously seeing fast enough to record the shots and remember what the hits are from the sight lifting. Obviously the accuracy is good because I'm hitting the target. Could someone please possibly shed some light on what the hell is happening? It is unusual for me and of course has me wondering if this is good or bad or just natural progression? If it matters I'm shooting CO

@CrashDodson I have gotten pretty good at drawing to an acceptable sight picture and shooting the first array pretty well as in seeing everything and keeping good form and such but once I start moving I relapse into old bad habits. Target transitions are the worst but they're have been times when I "let go" and the gun shows up exactly where I need it to. I just can't do it consistently. I'm gonna continue working on things as you have suggested trying to push the speed in practice and then using @benos advice and see what I need to see. I usually am pretty good at knowing what target I have a mike on if any and it's usually always when I'm trying to rush through an array and I leave it because it would take to much time to go back but if I can start making them up in more real time that would be great. I had two mikes on a stage this past weekend and neither surprised me due to the fact that I didn't remember seeing ANYTHING sight related on either target for the second shot and both instances were induced by rushing and trying to shoot at a movement level above my skill. I still finished 3rd overall out of 54 but was 11 seconds behind a GM PCC shooter. I left alot of points on the table with 3 mikes though. No d's and shot 91% of the available match points. My shot calling is getting better and my accuracy is getting better because of better shot calling but now I've gotta learn how to move through the stages more fluently, smoothly, and quickly while maintaining accuracy. From what I'm gathering though in my practice I just need to worry about the speed in order to accomplish my goal of getting faster and then go to the match and let my eyes dictate the shooting speed and my subconscious training dictate my movement, correct?

@CrashDodson that is sort of in reference to Anderson's speed mode training, right? I try my best to be sure I'm calling shots even in dry fire or at least knowing when they weren't good enough but I find myself over aiming the gun, that's the best way to convey it that I can come up with it right now. The gun isn't showing up on target when I snap my eyes to next target most of the time but I've caught myself paying more attention lately and realizing that I am following the dot in the corner of my eye so now that I'm somewhat aware of the problem I'm working on trying to break that bad habit. @benos I definitely feel like most of the time I am pushing and rushing. Could you explain a little further as to why that is detrimental. Does it induce tension and strain?I've got your book and read it shortly after getting it and I need to read it again since the first time I read it I don't think I had been shooting long enough to truly understand all the knowledge and wisdom in it.

@CrashDodson and @Jake Di Vita wow guys that's alot of great info! I think it's gonna take a couple of times reading through it to really grasp all the knowledge. Thank you and I'm gonna start putting some to use tonight. I think I'm gonna try to setup a dry fire array that is something I can setup again later and get a baseline and then break it down and work each piece individually and then go back and setup the whole thing and see if I've made any progress after a few training sessions. May even try to setup the camera and get some videos. I guess I'm about to break the no running in the house rule that we constantly get onto the kids for!

It's really odd that I have just now figured out after two years shooting USPSA and idpa that you can get a pretty good ways while absolutely sucking at moving through and navigating a stage, but once you reach that point and realize it then you're thinking oh sh** what do I do now.

@Jake Di Vita that is what I think I needed to hear. I've got to figure out ways to mix up my training some more and work on all of that to get to the next level. When training by yourself,(which is what I have to do most of the time) how do you go about trying to develop a technique for entering quickly and smoothly and leaving quickly and smoothly? Do you video yourself or just try your best to self evaluate by body feel? This is the part of the game that I haven't gotten knee deep into yet and I want to try and make this part of my training as efficient as possible in order to make the most gains. For example in dry fire last night I set up a few arrays around the house and practiced drawing on those different arrays and then moving to the others, constantly varying what I was doing but there isn't a standard for that sort of thing, so how do you know that you're practicing it correctly?

I live fire the stand and shoot stuff enough that my classifiers have greatly improved and I'm moving up on that end of things but just looking through videos my movement during a field course looks very choppy and sloppy. So what basics of movement should I go back to? The drawing and reloading basics aren't what you're referring to is it?

So in my journey to getting better at the sport of action pistol I have reached a point of diminishing returns. We all understand that we have to grip the gun and manage recoil and see what we need to see to make a given shot depending on difficulty along with the necessary amount of trigger control and visual patience. (Still constantly working on those things) We also hear that you still need to stay relaxed in order to move efficiently and fluently throughout a stage. So my question is how do you isolate the strong grip and shooting fundamentals without inducing tension? Is this something that comes with more practice and experience or is there some mentality that we should incorporate into our practice that allows us to attain this knowledge? Watching the top tier shooters we can all see that they look relaxed and very nimble while people like myself look tense and cumbersome. I know we all seem to reach plateaus and then break through them but at this point I seem to be having serious difficulty breaking through this one. Advice and guidance is greatly appreciated and definitely will be put to use! Thanks in advance to anyone that can help! If it matters I am A class in CO with a fairly high B average in production.

So I've looked and looked and looked on the forum using the search function and found alot of information on focal distance if you wear glasses and what prescription to use and all of that but nothing on people with normal vision. Watching some videos from Frank Proctor he shoots with his elbows really bent (seems more than most shooters) and I've played around with this in practice a little and found that it seems to make it easier to see "through" the sights to the target plus it seems to enforce bringing the gun up to my line of sight rather than dipping my head any. It also seems to be easier to see the front sight clearly with both eyes open instead of the occasional double sights thing that happens. Any opinions on having the focal distance closer and using this more bent elbows position? Looking for potential negatives or any positives from anyone that does this or something similar. Also seems to help the gun recoil more predictably and consistently.

Thank you for this info! I'm a B in CO and C in limited and Production but just started shooting Production about 3 months ago. Working hard to get better in production as it requires better planning and execution which is what I enjoy.

That is great info when I really think about what you're saying. That's why people hit no shoots when they say "dang I was really trying not to hit that no shoot". If they're looking at it they shoot it. I've experienced this stringing you're talking about before but never thought it might be because my eyes didn't give a shot the attention that I should have. That's most likely the reason for me missing steel on the first shot. I believe my vision is getting better but there is still alot of room for improvement. If you don't mind me asking, how much dry fire/live fire practice does it take to maintain a GM level of shooting? Also the advice of shooting at the speed of seeing is great advice. We can't accurately shoot faster than we are seeing!

I think I'm finally beginning to understand what you are talking about and how it ties into the visual patience topic that I've read so much about. My gun has an all black rear and .100 front fiber optic sight so I think if I try putting this into practice I can make it become the new normal. It really seems that the more your vision skills increase so does your classification and shooting skills. I'm finally starting to realize the importance of peripheral vision and maintaining a wide field of view while shooting a COF also. The hard part is avoiding looking over the sights or not seeing "through" them at all. That seems to happen when I'm trying to rush a shot. Has that been you're experience also?

That's probably the funniest part of this whole conversation is that I'm not really sure if I'm a front sight shooter or not yet. I just know with the dot and not having 3 objects to be concerned with it is a whole lot easier to shoot quickly with acceptable accuracy. I was dry firing tonight and trying to see the targets and then the relationship between the front and rear sight along with their position on the target is difficult. I think I'm understanding what it is that you're saying though...its like seeing the sights on the way to seeing the target...maybe. I'm gonna work on this more this week and see what I can come up with. Thank you for the replies and information and hopefully I can learn more from this.

If I did my research right you are a GM so that definitely confirms my theory that this is what the top shooters do. How much time of the dry fire/live fire mix does it take to do this efficiently? Is it subconscious for you now?

That's makes alot sense! When I started playing with the dot gun it was an exciting moment because I was able to hit whatever I shot at with confidence and made up shots with ease because I knew where that little red ball bounced from. It also showed me how bad my trigger control was as I could see the dot move right at the time the shot broke or the instant before it broke so it has helped my shooting alot but ultimately I want to be that confident with iron sights also. Ive gotta figure out this vision thing or focus thing or whatever it is because I'm definitely not as confident with irons especially on partials or hardcover targets. Shot calling is so crucial but also so freaking difficult to do or understand.

Nah I'm not to bad about "turkey necking" or trying to see my hits on the target. I've actually learned to trust the sights and go but it's still nowhere near as quick as with the dot. I believe not really knowing how to call my shot with iron sights may the culprit. It's amazing how much easier it is with the dot and how difficult it is FOR ME to do with iron sights. I feel like there is something that I'm not seeing in order to call my shots and now our conversation has got me wondering if I'm losing my sight focus to early on the second shot in an effort to rush to the next target.

So when transitioning from target to target I should just be trying to align the sight on the center of the target without having precise location on the target to align it? I feel like I'm almost trying to be to precise with iron sights vs just shooting at the center of the target with the dot. It's funny that you said this because when I'm shooting the dot gun it reminds me of a red ball bouncing on the target and between the targets. Also looking back at video after reading this I saw that there isn't any hesitation with the dot gun after the second shot where with the iron sights it's like I'm waiting to get a 3rd sight picture before I transition. I'm guessing that is subconscious with irons since I've been shooting them so much longer whereas with the dot I'm letting my vision dictate everything. Seem sensible?

So I've shot iron sights predominantly for 2 years and recently started practicing with a dot on a gun identical to my iron sight gun. Shot one classifier match and missed A class by .7%. (C in production and limited) The dot is so much more accurate at speed and so much easier to transition from target to target for me so it's really got me wanting to try and bring my skills with the iron sight gun up to that level. The problem I'm having with irons is that transition times are significantly slower for me and I know it has something to do with vision but I'm getting nothing in practice as far as a break through. I'm hoping someone here may understand what I'm experiencing and have a piece of advice that is the missing link. Does your focus stay at the distance of the front sight on transitions or shift to the depth of the target?

OK thanks for the ideas and information. I've never really thought about dry fire that way.

Yes that definitely answers my question! Lol the wife will really be looking at me like I'm crazy now. I've been shooting idpa since last April and one USPSA match a month since last June. I feel like my vision should be ahead of where it is especially on shot calling and transitions because my transitions at 10 to 15 yards are still only .4's with the occasional high .3 and sight tracking is giving me fits. El presidente was the classifier stage in Saturdays match and I butchered it terribly with a Mike, a D, and several C's. Shot the match at 62% but had 2 other Mike's on another stage. Definitely not how I envisioned the match going. 12th overall and 3rd limited but that was the suckiest feeling finish thus far.

When you say dry fire...do I need to incorporate movement and position entry and exit into that as much as possible? I've always taken dry fire to be more for the basics of draws, reloads, transitions and such