Chamberchecking during the match?

[usmc1974]

And so, a Snapchat on the line is the loaded firearm? How is that different from, then when you're shooting steel matches and you unbag, and make ready, your rifle/pistol. and have to take the flag out of it?

Edited July 13, 2020 by usmc1974

[AzShooter]

I've seen many shooters at the tables before a match checking their ammo with just a barrel.  I don't consider it a firearm and have no problem.  NROI would be the best place to get the correct answer though.  

[DKorn]

43 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

And so, a Snapchat on the line is the loaded firearm? How is that different from, then when you're shooting steel matches and you unbag, and make ready, your rifle/pistol. and have to take the flag out of it?

A snap cap, dummy round, or even empty casing in the chamber, cylinder, or inserted magazine is considered loaded because the rules explicitly state that it is considered loaded. Check the glossary definition of “loaded firearm” in the current USPSA rulebook. 
 

A chamber flag is acceptable in PCC because it isn’t a dummy round, and is required by the rules. 
 

What other disciplines do in their rule sets has no bearing on what the USPSA rules say. 

[terrapin]

If a barrel by itself is considered a firearm, would a Hundo case checking block be considered an assault weapon? Asking for a friend.


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[usmc1974]

During load and make ready this falls out of your gun your dq'd? But in a USPSA steel challenge match.  when you take your rifle for your 22 pistol out of the bag it contain a chamber flag and that's okay. Got some strange rules in USPSA Today

Edited July 13, 2020 by usmc1974

[DKorn]

59 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

During load and make ready this falls out of your gun your dq'd? But in a USPSA steel challenge match.  when you take your rifle for your 22 pistol out of the bag it contain a chamber flag and that's okay. Got some strange rules in USPSA Today

It’s also a DQ to handle those in the safe area, by the way. 
 

There are definitely a few weird discrepancies in the rules, but I don’t think this is one of them. If it looks like ammunition and feeds and chambers in a gun and magazine like ammunition, then for all intents and purposes it is considered ammunition. Having ammunition in your gun when you aren’t supposed to or handling it in the safe area is a DQable offense. 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

And so, a Snapchat on the line is the loaded firearm? How is that different from, then when you're shooting steel matches and you unbag, and make ready, your rifle/pistol. and have to take the flag out of it?

For starters a flag can't be mistaken for a round?

[usmc1974]

10 minutes ago, DKorn said:

It’s also a DQ to handle those in the safe area, by the way. 
 

There are definitely a few weird discrepancies in the rules, but I don’t think this is one of them. If it looks like ammunition and feeds and chambers in a gun and magazine like ammunition, then for all intents and purposes it is considered ammunition. Having ammunition in your gun when you aren’t supposed to or handling it in the safe area is a DQable offense. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, USPSA has gone completely safety stupid. They can not have enough rules, to cover every possible scenario. this is never going to happen today's, rule book has more pages then  the Obama healthcare plan

Edited July 13, 2020 by usmc1974

[usmc1974]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

For starters a flag can't be mistaken for a round?

 I don't know Sarge, if eyesight is that poor. And Common Sense is that far gone!!!!!lol

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, DKorn said:

If you come up to the line, receive the make ready command, then pull your gun out and rack it and a round (live, dummy, etc.) comes out before you’ve loaded it at make ready, you would be DQ’d under 10.5.13 because your firearm was clearly loaded prior to the make ready command.

 

not if you loaded the snapcap in there super quick and stealthy like, after make ready,, while the RO was distracted. 

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

 I don't know Sarge, if eyesight is that poor. And Common Sense is that far gone!!!!!lol

I know and I agree. But what if a guy loads some dummy rounds for dry fire and accidentally mixes in live rounds. When done training he drops mag but doesn't clear gun properly. He goes to the safe table and somebody wants to touch his new gun and pulls the trigger without checking for clear. Boom! Sure that's a comedy of errors so to speak but the rules of USPSA rely a lot on redundancy to keep bad things from happening. 

  I personally know two people in shooting who have done really dumb stuff. One shot a hole in his closet floor because he dropped mag and pulled trigger without racking the round out. Another guy was practicing and dropped mag then bagged gun. Came to a match and went to safety area pulled out gun and just pulled trigger without clearing first.

  My point is people make mistakes and the rules are here to protect them and us.

[DKorn]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I know and I agree. But what if a guy loads some dummy rounds for dry fire and accidentally mixes in live rounds. When done training he drops mag but doesn't clear gun properly. He goes to the safe table and somebody wants to touch his new gun and pulls the trigger without checking for clear. Boom! Sure that's a comedy of errors so to speak but the rules of USPSA rely a lot on redundancy to keep bad things from happening. 

  I personally know two people in shooting who have done really dumb stuff. One shot a hole in his closet floor because he dropped mag and pulled trigger without racking the round out. Another guy was practicing and dropped mag then bagged gun. Came to a match and went to safety area pulled out gun and just pulled trigger without clearing first.

  My point is people make mistakes and the rules are here to protect them and us.

The other thing that comes to mind is that lots of people use dummy rounds for weighting mags in dry fire practice that are virtually indistinguishable from live rounds at a quick glance. From a rules perspective it’s probably easier to just count all dummy rounds as the same as live ammunition than to try to decide which ones look enough different to not count. 

[arkadi]

During competition RO finds a competitor dry-firing in an empty bay or on an empty stage (already shot by the competitor). Upon closer inspection the handgun have no firing pin installed. RO actions? If DQ, which rule? What if it was just the frame, no upper?

 

A particular shooting range internal rules (mixed with country's firearm laws) forbid moving between buildings of a larger shooting complex with firearm and magazines on the belt - literally 20-30m. Shooting equipment must be (un-)bagged in SA. The violation is a DQ, and - technically - criminal charge (yet there will be no LE to enforce, and competitor will be stopped in 99% of cases by the staff, educated). What is the 10.5 reason for DQ? 10.6.2/3 USPSA/IPSC? 10.3.1?

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by arkadi

[DKorn]

4 hours ago, arkadi said:

During competition RO finds a competitor dry-firing in an empty bay or on an empty stage (already shot by the competitor). Upon closer inspection the handgun have no firing pin installed. RO actions? If DQ, which rule? What if it was just the frame, no upper?

 

A particular shooting range internal rules (mixed with country's firearm laws) forbid moving between buildings of a larger shooting complex with firearm and magazines on the belt - literally 20-30m. Shooting equipment must be (un-)bagged in SA. The violation is a DQ, and - technically - criminal charge (yet there will be no LE to enforce, and competitor will be stopped in 99% of cases by the staff, educated). What is the 10.5 reason for DQ? 10.6.2/3 USPSA/IPSC? 10.3.1?

 

 

For your first one, that’s a DQ under 10.5.1. Just because the firing pin is removed, it’s still a firearm that you are handling outside of the safe area and not under RO supervision and in response to a range command. Still true if you take the slide off of a handgun, since the frame is the actual firearm in most cases. Something that’s not a firearm, like a blue gun, would probably be technically not in violation of 10.5.1, although you would be violating 8.7.2 if you’re on an actual stage. 
 

Assuming USPSA rules, your second one falls under one of the very limited exceptions in 3.3 that allows a local rule to be enforced (required to comply with legislation) so I would say a violation falls under 10.6.2 as failure to comply with the reasonable direction of a match official. This also assumes that the MD/RM make the rule and penalty for violating it very clear during the shooter’s meeting and in pre-match communication. 

[broadside72]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:48 AM, rowdyb said:

I think how I typed it still works. Not handling ammo in safe area? Roll on.

 

The question seems to be more when is your gun not a gun if you're using your barrel to check rounds at a match.

 

During my RO class, Troy said once the gun is disassembled, its not a firearm according to the rules. You could look down the muzzle all you wanted without DQ. I'd say the OP's situation is legal.

[shred]

So then popping the slide or PCC upper off and using that for the walkthrough is cool now?  8.7.2 just says you can't use "guns" or "gun replicas" during walkthough and if it's not a gun when taken apart, here we go...

 

 

 

[arkadi]

IPSC rules are more elaborate for such case:

8.7.2 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their own hands, while conducting their inspection ("walkthrough") of a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1).

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, arkadi said:

IPSC rules are more elaborate for such case:

8.7.2 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their own hands, while conducting their inspection ("walkthrough") of a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1).

Yep, I remember the towel incident 

[DKorn]

21 minutes ago, shred said:

So then popping the slide or PCC upper off and using that for the walkthrough is cool now?  8.7.2 just says you can't use "guns" or "gun replicas" during walkthough and if it's not a gun when taken apart, here we go...

 

 

 

I was told by the guy who taught my RO and CRO class when I asked him what counts as a gun replica that if it looks like a gun or has sights, it’s not allowed under 8.7.2, otherwise it’s ok (for USPSA) So using an umbrella in your hands to mimic a PCC is pushing it, and a broom that’s shouldered is too far. And if you mount a red dot on a stick, that’s also not allowed. 

[ima45dv8]

15 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yep, I remember the towel incident 

I seem to also remember a water bottle incident.

[PhilTerry]

Rowdy has answered the question, no handling of ammunition in a safe area.

[DKorn]

34 minutes ago, PhilTerry said:

Rowdy has answered the question, no handling of ammunition in a safe area.

Reread the OP. The chamber checking was being done outside of the safe area using a barrel from a gun that had been disassembled in the safe area. 

[usmc1974]

As John Wayne would say " yeah! " today even the rules have rules. Is this many rules really necessary? Are people really gaming that hard to win? And why do you have to use a barrel to check your ammunition I have a Factory ammo case gauge. And it only cost like $10 just asking. I guess it's measures the amount that it would be for factory ammo? go no-go gauge? I hope I explained this right.

[arkadi]

Another aspect is that the place where chamberchecking is performed is somewhat away from the safety area where 2/3 of the firearm is left effectively unsupervised. There is IPSC outside of US; firearm laws and shooting competition organization laws/guidelines that differs. The shooting range despite being exclusively rented for the competition is public access, unrelated people / spectators come and go to see what happens. Could be LE undercover.

[SGT_Schultz]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:03 PM, LuvDog said:

I wouldn’t give a second thought to someone chamber checking in a loose barrel.  

 

Exactly.  I don't get all the angst over it.

 

A barrel isn't a firearm.  Only the irrational would see any kind of threat or danger from a live cartridge inside what is basically an open steel pipe.