arkadi Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Welcome opinions and real-life stories. A competitor disassemble a firearm into parts, take the barrel from Safety Area to the common space, leave everything else - slide, frame - in SA. Proceed with chamberchecking reloaded ammunition with other shooters and staff closely around. Sweeping with muzzle everyone nearby with a round inserted in the chamber. Safe / Unsafe? DQ or not? (IPSC rules specifically) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blasterboy Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 I might be annoyed if the competitor was also expected to patch, RO, score keep...etc. if they're having malfunctions, I'd cut them some slack. There's nothing unsafe about chamber checking with the barrel of a disassembled handgun.Sent from my XP8800 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdlrodeo Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 I wouldn’t think that is a problem. I don’t remember seeing anything like that in the rule book. Was it a handgun or rifle? i ask this because you mention ‘muzzling everyone’. Not at all an issue with a handgun in my opinion but I could see where the perception could change if it were a rifle barrel. I don’t think it’s less safe, just the difference in perception of those having a rifle barrel pointed at them. now if it were a rifle or PCC upper, even without the BCG, again perception could be even worse. just thinking out loud here and would like more specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeti Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Does not sound unsafe from your described account, but we weren't there. Distracting perhaps. Sounds like you are overly sensitive about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 Are you handling ammunition in the safe area? Yes or no? Is handling ammunition in the safe area a DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, rowdyb said: Are you handling ammunition in the safe area? Yes or no? Is handling ammunition in the safe area a DQ? That was my first thought, but I went back and re-read the OP and he said they left all of the gun parts, except the barrel, in the safe area. They took the barrel over somewhere else and started chamber checking. It doesn't sound any less-safe than using a Wilson or Hundo gauge, but as was mentioned, could be a bit distracting. And he better get done quick. Doing it on one stage could be OK, but if missing the joy of reset on EVERY stage, we could have a problem (they gotta work, too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) I think how I typed it still works. Not handling ammo in safe area? Roll on. The question seems to be more when is your gun not a gun if you're using your barrel to check rounds at a match. Edited July 12, 2020 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bench Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, rowdyb said: The question seems to be more when is your gun not a gun...." was my first thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkadi Posted July 12, 2020 Author Share Posted July 12, 2020 The firearm in the example above is handgun. No pasting by competitors - dedicated ROs and a helper. Besides perception, would it matter if it was a PCC or rifle upper? Follow-up questions: 1. What constitutes a firearm? At which point sensitivity of people around transforms into issue from Rules point of view? How complete a firearm must be to invoke 10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated Safety Area, etc.? Is it subjective RO ruling, or...? 2. 10.5 begins Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to. Are there example of unsafe handling that are not mentioned in the rules yet you know a competitor was DQ under general 10.5 rule? What were the specifics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdlrodeo Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, arkadi said: Besides perception, would it matter if it was a PCC or rifle upper? Not one bit. I would treat both the same. neither a barrel by itself or an upper (with or without BCG) is considered a firearm. Just a part of one. however, I would personally be more aware of where I was pointing the AR upper. I wouldn’t go ‘aiming’ the pistol barrel at anyone either. so, a bit of a tangent: I was thinking, what if this was a revolver without an easily removable cylinder or a fixed barrel firearm like a beretta? Can’t handle live or dummy ammo in safe area. Soooo if that was the case I would ask if an RO/or other official was available to Supervise at a vacant bay or see if the chrono folks weren’t too busy. They can issue the make ready to start the process. I could take the slide off, chamber check, reassemble And they could issue proper commands back to the bag or holster. Simple, safe, legal per rules. Edited July 12, 2020 by Sdlrodeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, rowdyb said: I think how I typed it still works. Not handling ammo in safe area? Roll on. The question seems to be more when is your gun not a gun if you're using your barrel to check rounds at a match. Yeah, you're right. It does work. I'd be OK with calling just a barrel something less than/other than a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 So a loose barrel and rounds and the checker tapping the tight ones in with a ball-peen hammer would be ok? The definitions of "loaded firearm" and "loading" don't require the firearm to be functional... Personally I wouldn't have a great deal of heartburn about it, but you'd want to check the ROs agree first I'd say, especially since just a dummy or empty case in the chamber counts as 'loaded' and is arguably a safer thng. Loaded firearm A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Loading The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted, firearm is in battery (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire), and the competitor’s hand has been removed from the magazine or other loading device (except as may occur during establishing a normal grip on the firearm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdlrodeo Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 14 minutes ago, shred said: So a loose barrel and rounds and the checker tapping the tight ones in with a ball-peen hammer would be ok? I wouldn’t call that chamber checking. 14 minutes ago, shred said: The definitions of "loaded firearm" and "loading" don't require the firearm to be functional... Those definitions do use the term ‘firearm’ I think most here would agree that a barrel or upper separated from the receiver is not a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 31 minutes ago, shred said: So a loose barrel and rounds and the checker tapping the tight ones in with a ball-peen hammer would be ok? The definitions of "loaded firearm" and "loading" don't require the firearm to be functional... Personally I wouldn't have a great deal of heartburn about it, but you'd want to check the ROs agree first I'd say, especially since just a dummy or empty case in the chamber counts as 'loaded' and is arguably a safer thng. Loaded firearm A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Loading The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted, firearm is in battery (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire), and the competitor’s hand has been removed from the magazine or other loading device (except as may occur during establishing a normal grip on the firearm). True story, I was at an area match I flew to. I was dry firing in the hotel morning before match. Go to match and I am first shooter, first stage. At make ready I rack a commercial snap cap onto the ground. RO says "pick that up and I didn't see it ". We both knew I should be dq-ed for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 50 minutes ago, rowdyb said: At make ready I rack a commercial snap cap onto the ground. RO says "pick that up and I didn't see it ". We both knew I should be dq-ed for it. What rule prevents you from having a loaded gun after "make ready?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 OP - not a DQ unless RO claims the barrel is a gun, which would be up to arbitration to determine and my guess (personal) is that it would not be a DQ. The problem is that we have an ATF definition of a firearm as the serilalized part, but that's not the only definition and it wouldn't be prevailing in this situation. Much like we wouldn't use what the state of CA believes to be an "assault weapon" or "unsafe handgun." We don't have a definition of a firearm in the USPSA rules (thankfully), so it would come down to what a panel would think about it. Knowing the people I shoot with, few if any would decide that the barrel alone fits the definition of "a firearm." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) Personally, I wouldn't point a barrel at anyone and I wouldn't push the limit on doing something that could be perceived as a provocation, but that's just me. Would I object if someone was looking at me through the barrel alone? I'd probably treat it similarly as if they flipped me off - inappropriate, but meh. Might tell the RO to address it under "unsportsmanlike conduct" if the person continued doing it to me after I told them not to. Also personally, if someone used a barrel to chamber-check ammo and was doing it while the rest of us are shooting, I'd laugh more than anything else. I gauge all my ammo because I'd had issues in the past, so anyone who is doing it on the spot and using a crutch is deserving of more pity than scorn. Edited July 12, 2020 by IVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, IVC said: What rule prevents you from having a loaded gun after "make ready?" If you come up to the line, receive the make ready command, then pull your gun out and rack it and a round (live, dummy, etc.) comes out before you’ve loaded it at make ready, you would be DQ’d under 10.5.13 because your firearm was clearly loaded prior to the make ready command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 12, 2020 Share Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, IVC said: What rule prevents you from having a loaded gun after "make ready?" 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Loaded firearm A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, IVC said: What rule prevents you from having a loaded gun after "make ready?" i had a snap cap, loaded gun in the rules, in before i was given the make ready command as i'd been dry firing in the hotel that morning with it in and forgot to take it out. so when i get to match and pull my gun out of bag at safe area it truly wasn't unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVC Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 The question was whether you can have a loaded gun AFTER "make ready," not before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, IVC said: The question was whether you can have a loaded gun AFTER "make ready," not before... If I give you make ready you have permission to load. If you rack a round out at make ready you in fact had a loaded gun before make ready. DQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKorn Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, Sarge said: If I give you make ready you have permission to load. If you rack a round out at make ready you in fact had a loaded gun before make ready. DQ This is exactly what I was taught during my RO and CRO class and exactly how I would call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvDog Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 I wouldn’t give a second thought to someone chamber checking in a loose barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stick Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 12 hours ago, shred said: So a loose barrel and rounds and the checker tapping the tight ones in with a ball-peen hammer would be ok? The definitions of "loaded firearm" and "loading" don't require the firearm to be functional... Personally I wouldn't have a great deal of heartburn about it, but you'd want to check the ROs agree first I'd say, especially since just a dummy or empty case in the chamber counts as 'loaded' and is arguably a safer thng. Loaded firearm A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. Loading The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted, firearm is in battery (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire), and the competitor’s hand has been removed from the magazine or other loading device (except as may occur during establishing a normal grip on the firearm). I have to disagree with you. A barrel is not a firearm. Just like a upper from an AR is not a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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