2011 and Carry optics

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Those numbers pretty much back up what I've posted previously.  But some people want to argue against reality.  The sad thing about CO popularity is that with a heavy pistol, dot and minor power factor, shooting targets at close range ends up being more of a fitness contest than a shooting contest.  And the low barriers to entry (skill-wise) are what make it popular. 

You have made some excellent points in this thread, but this isn't one of them. In fact, this post sounds dumb and fuddly, even tho there are elements of truth in what makes CO attractive.

 

One of the nice things about the rise of CO and the temporary rise of PCC, is that in many places targets have become less hosey, and more actual marksmanship is required. for sure, it is somewhat easier to hit harder targets with a dot, and it is certainly easier to understand why you are missing with a dot, and how to fix it, but the fundamentals of the sport are still the same.

 

Alluding to shred's point about primers, I personally find that I need a bit more live fire with iron sights to stay sharp compared to dots, so perhaps there is more momentum for dot divisions in the current environment where primers and ammo are more expensiver than they used to be.

 

 

[CC3D]

6 minutes ago, shred said:

Throw in the perceived need for a $3K+ custom blaster and it's small wonder CO is going nuts.

Wouldn't this be an argument against 2011's in CO? Adding perceived need for a 3k+ gun? 

 

Personally I think the sport works best with your racegun divisions, and your non racegun (production) divisions. Every time you change the rules to make the production gun divisions edge closer to the race gun divisions, you take a little away from what makes the divisions fun and unique. What is the point of having different divisions if they're all shooting virtually the same gun? Some would like to ignore the fact that making these changes hurts other divisions. Allowing 2011's in CO hurts open whether you care or not. The explosive growth of CO is not healthy for the sport in general in my opinion, but people clearly like it the way it is, why keep changing it? An important question imo is if adding single actions to CO add more to CO than it does detract from other divisions, and I think it doesn't. Let the racegun divisions have their single actions, we dont need to change the rules again just so the 4 people who actually carry CO style 2011's dont have to shoot in open

[RJH]

24 minutes ago, shred said:

People like shooting hicaps.

People like shooting 9mm minor.

People like shooting dots.

 

You ballers probably haven't noticed but it's been a wee bit slim pickins on primers lately so the divisions where reloading ammo is a big thing (Open, Limited) have taken a hit.  Throw in the perceived need for a $3K+ custom blaster and it's small wonder CO is going nuts.

 

 

This is why I shoot some carry ops. Well, except for the dot and I like major. But I reckon when I can get primers somewhat reliably I will go back to limited

Edited May 3, 2022 by RJH

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by RJH

[BritinUSA]

Why are hicap divisions more popular?
Is it because people like to have the option to fire a lot of makeup shots if they miss a few targets?

Is it because most stages at L1 matches are high round count, and having to clean 3-4 magazines on most stages is not fun? 

Is it because reloading is hard?

Is it because working out a stage plan with 10 round magazines is harder than with 24?

[BritinUSA]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Having your pet division exist in perpetuity is not guaranteed.

Just wanted to mention that IPSC’s Production Division rules have barely changed in 22 years. Original concept was 10 rounds, the GA rejected that and went with factory magazine capacity. A few years later IPSC settled on 15 round capacity. Any changes have been very minor or clarifications on the rules.

 

CO has changed significantly, multiple times.

[RJH]

23 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Why are hicap divisions more popular?
Is it because people like to have the option to fire a lot of makeup shots if they miss a few targets?

Is it because most stages at L1 matches are high round count, and having to clean 3-4 magazines on most stages is not fun? 

Is it because reloading is hard?

Is it because working out a stage plan with 10 round magazines is harder than with 24?

 

For me, I shot single stack, production, and l10 for years, now I prefer to shoot at a shoot at a shooting match.  Though I will still be shooting a 1911 for a while, because I have lpps, but when I can get spps reasonable I will probably go back to limited

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Why are hicap divisions more popular?

 

Why don't you jump back in the game and find out?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Just wanted to mention that IPSC’s Production Division rules have barely changed in 22 years. Original concept was 10 rounds, the GA rejected that and went with factory magazine capacity. A few years later IPSC settled on 15 round capacity. Any changes have been very minor or clarifications on the rules.

 

CO has changed significantly, multiple times.

 

Which one is more successful with the people who pay the freight?

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Why are hicap divisions more popular?
Is it because people like to have the option to fire a lot of makeup shots if they miss a few targets?

Is it because most stages at L1 matches are high round count, and having to clean 3-4 magazines on most stages is not fun? 

Is it because reloading is hard?

Is it because working out a stage plan with 10 round magazines is harder than with 24?

i can't speak for other people, but here are my thoughts and observations.

 

i think most people like shooting more than they like all the other stuff associated with competition (stage planning, movement, fitness, reloading, shot-calling, practice, etc....). CO and pcc make it easy to hit targets without practicing. Of course you still have to practice and work hard to do well, but most folks don't seem that concerned about doing well, they just like shooting.

 

I personally don't mind cleaning magazines on high round count stages, and I think reloading is easy, and I think stage planning with 10 round magazines is easier and less complex than with high-cap (far fewer choices to make). I also like practicing tho, so maybe I'm weird.

 

Although i really really like shooting SS, There are 2 things I like about high cap divisions. first is that's where the heat is, and I'd rather shoot in a division that has more good shooters. Second is that I think people can learn and progress faster when they can take more chances and shoot more aggressively, and having more makeup shots means you can be more aggressive.

[euxx]

15 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I’d love to see the same kind of graph for IPSC, I think they generally use EZWinscore or something like that rather than Practiscore, so I’m not sure if the data is available online.

 

The ezwinscore was an USPSA thing that they put to rest in favour of PractiScore.

There is some IPSC-specific data in PractiScore online services, but generally IPSC don't have such centralized store of the match results anywhere. It is spread across 5..10 proprietary services and some of them not even using structured data storages (e.g. posting PDF documents instead). Your best bet is to fish for L4..L5 match results for the past years and derive conclusions from there. But then there are significant region-specific deviations.

[euxx]

16 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I say leave CO as is for a while, the way things are going it it will be THE division shortly. A friend is doing some data mining in practiscore looking at thousands of actual matches shot. Any changes should be CO (as is seems to be working) Open, PCC, then the way things are headed we can just have an Iron sight division because they are all shrinking away fast.

 

If he is doing data mining he should look at the number of people moved between divisions and not just at the total number in individual divisions.

There are other factors in play than uspsa division dilution. E.g. ammo cost and shortages. CO is like Open but much cheaper to get in and to shoot competitive.

[CC3D]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

first is that's where the heat is, and I'd rather shoot in a division that has more good shooters.

 

This is an important point too. I cant help but think some competitors are joining CO just because that's where the heat is. If that is the only reason to join a division we clearly have an issue. If there is only one real division to compete in this game gets a lot less fun, and we shouldn't be contributing to that issue more by making CO rules more and more open. 

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, CC3D said:

 

This is an important point too. I cant help but think some competitors are joining CO just because that's where the heat is. If that is the only reason to join a division we clearly have an issue. If there is only one real division to compete in this game gets a lot less fun, and we shouldn't be contributing to that issue more by making CO rules more and more open. 

so you're saying we should make CO suck more and be less fun to shoot so it won't steal all the shooters from stupid and non-fun divisions like pcc and prod?

[CC3D]

Was carry optics any less fun a year ago before all the rule changes were made? You can make divisions unique without making them "less fun" 

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, CC3D said:

 

This is an important point too. I cant help but think some competitors are joining CO just because that's where the heat is. If that is the only reason to join a division we clearly have an issue. If there is only one real division to compete in this game gets a lot less fun, and we shouldn't be contributing to that issue more by making CO rules more and more open. 

For years Limited was the biggest division by far and as such had the most heat at any given local match, so per your logic that was a bad thing?

 

 

[shred]

Limited numbers are always inflated by noobs that show up with 3 magazines.

 

Many shooters don't think extra reloads adds fun and most shooters shoot for fun.  CO had little interest until it went hicap.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

My $0.02 

 

People like going fast, but budgeting time and money is a real thing, compared to Limited, CO is equal hit factors (and thus placement in the overall results that everyone actually looks at) but you don't have to reload or buy expensive 40, you don't need a 2011 with finicky $130 magazines. Compared to Open you get 95% of the performance once again without any of the reloading and 2011 hassle. 

 

You can literally go to the store buy a pistol, optic, and magazines that will be competitive at the top of the sport for under $2k and feed it with cheep factory ammo. 

 

the only divisions close on competitive gear cost are Prod and SS, and those are low cap iron sight divisions that place you well down in the overall once again the thing that most shooters actually look at.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, euxx said:

 

If he is doing data mining he should look at the number of people moved between divisions and not just at the total number in individual divisions.

There are other factors in play than uspsa division dilution. E.g. ammo cost and shortages. CO is like Open but much cheaper to get in and to shoot competitive.

he is mostly just looking at match data and what we can and cant tell from it.

I bugged him for some division data not sure if he's motivated enough to track individual shooters division changes. as it is its pretty easy to see that CO is growing while, Limited, Production, Single Stack, L10, and Revolver are shrinking, Locally at least I know most of the CO shooters are converts form other divisions. 

 

[euxx]

10 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

as it is its pretty easy to see that CO is growing while, Limited, Production, Single Stack, L10, and Revolver are shrinking...

 

The more interesting questions. Are divisions are growing from competitors who switched divisions (and from which ones?) or because of the new blood? Are divisions shrinking because competitors stopped shooting or because they switched divisions?

Revolver, Classic and PCC drops probably could be attributed to non-division switching factors.

[cbrussell]

24 minutes ago, euxx said:

 

The more interesting questions. Are divisions are growing from competitors who switched divisions (and from which ones?) or because of the new blood? Are divisions shrinking because competitors stopped shooting or because they switched divisions?

Revolver, Classic and PCC drops probably could be attributed to non-division switching factors.

In my little world, it seems like it is more converts/transfers from other divisions, especially in Carry Optics. People with vision issues, ie. older competitors like the idea of a red dot on a production type gun which may explain the drop in Production Division competitors. I think Limited might see the same reduction if SAO guns were allowed in Carry a Optics. 

 

On another topic, I fantasize what it would be like if the magazine capacity for all divisions was 10 rounds. Not advocating such a thing, just wondering how that would effect divisions and what competitors would choose to shoot. It would interesting to see which add ons would really effect speed. Does a compensator reduce times more than a red dot?

Is SAO definitely faster than a tuned striker fired or a DA/SA gun?

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

In my little world, it seems like it is more converts/transfers from other divisions, especially in Carry Optics. People with vision issues, ie. older competitors like the idea of a red dot on a production type gun which may explain the drop in Production Division competitors. I think Limited might see the same reduction if SAO guns were allowed in Carry a Optics. 

 

On another topic, I fantasize what it would be like if the magazine capacity for all divisions was 10 rounds. Not advocating such a thing, just wondering how that would effect divisions and what competitors would choose to shoot. It would interesting to see which add ons would really effect speed. Does a compensator reduce times more than a red dot?

Is SAO definitely faster than a tuned striker fired or a DA/SA gun?

NO WAY would I buy a $6-10k Open gun for 10 round limit. As much as I hate it I would play CO

[Darqusoull13]

17 hours ago, shred said:

People like shooting hicaps.

People like shooting 9mm minor.

People like shooting dots.

 

You ballers probably haven't noticed but it's been a wee bit slim pickins on primers lately so the divisions where reloading ammo is a big thing (Open, Limited) have taken a hit.  Throw in the perceived need for a $3K+ custom blaster and it's small wonder CO is going nuts.

 

Bingo! 

The numbers don't lie. Keep CO as is and focus effort on bringing new people in. Keep the yearly rule overhauls to IDPA and Multigun. 

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

In my little world, it seems like it is more converts/transfers from other divisions, especially in Carry Optics. People with vision issues, ie. older competitors like the idea of a red dot on a production type gun which may explain the drop in Production Division competitors. I think Limited might see the same reduction if SAO guns were allowed in Carry a Optics. 

 

On another topic, I fantasize what it would be like if the magazine capacity for all divisions was 10 rounds. Not advocating such a thing, just wondering how that would effect divisions and what competitors would choose to shoot. It would interesting to see which add ons would really effect speed. Does a compensator reduce times more than a red dot?

Is SAO definitely faster than a tuned striker fired or a DA/SA gun?

 

Just look up some results in NJ, I think they all run 10 rounds. 

[BritinUSA]

IPSC runs 15 in Production and Production Optics, too early to tell on the Optics division unless IPSC starts putting out some match data. But their Production division was one of the most popular, I don't think its a magazine capacity issue at all.

 

But IPSC stages are generally lower round count.

Edited May 3, 2022 by BritinUSA