Mark7 Evolution - Tuning & Troubleshooting

[MountainMan]

What caliber are you reloading? Was it set up for you when you took delivery or did you install?

 

Please post a video of the swage station in action wherein it fails to register a ringer or primed case. Please include in the video the shellplate and also the lower portion of the sensor where the two halves come together.

 

As for the swage sense, I assume you have gone thru the manual and installation guidelines and set the swage height correctly. Obviously if the swage pin is not set high enough, it will never trigger the sensor.

 

Setting the height is is best done with a halved-piece of brass (cut length wise with a dremel tool) so you can see how high the swage enters the primer pocket. This is in the PDF instructions. It would be good to have a flawed (unswageably small)  primer pocket, or a ringer as a 'positive' calibration piece, and a normal deprimed case as a negative calibration piece. Yes you can use an un-de-primed case for that purpose in a pinch. But a true ringered pocket is ideal. If it senses a ringer it will sense a remaining primer.  The reverse may not be true if your adjustments are not correct.

 

One common issue is shellplate flex/deflection. If the shellplate nut is not screwed down enough and the shellplate has too much vertical play, and especially if you are not using a hold down die of some kind at Swage, when the swage pin comes up it just pushes up the brass without meeting enough resistance to trigger the sensor. This would also cause primer height variations and could also influence primer orientation, but mainly primer seating height issues. The shellplate should be just able to be rotated by finger when the tablet is in 'clear shell plate' mode. If you can push down on it with your thumb and see it depress down (against the spring detent ball) then it's not tight enough.

 

I assume you already checked this, but the sensor adjustment is a small 0.050 allen screw on the 'right' side of the unit.   You need to first loosen the 1/4" nut that locks its position. Back out the set screw with a 0.050 allen wrench off the small orange switch a few turns.  Tighten the screw until you hear an audible “click” from the orange microswitch (if you do not hear a click the switch may be damaged).  Slowly back off the set screw slightly until you hear another audible click (also you can see that the screw is just above the switch and no longer depressing it). Retighten the 1/4" nut. Re-run the system and see if it works correctly.

 

close up pics and a video are always helpful so in the future, post those with your first post to speed up the process!

 

 

[Drmike]

On 1/23/2021 at 11:39 AM, MountainMan said:

Drmike,

 

You have the autodrive on it, I assume, right?

 

So you have set the height of the primer sensor orientation plunger according to the manual; please post a photo of this for us.  Is the plunger free to move up and down when you press lightly with your finger?

 

One problem that can occur with the primer orientation sensor is if the index pawl is not set correctly and the shellplate is not aligned quite correctly at the end of each cycle and before the cycle begins. The primer orientation sensor triggers at the BEGINNING of each cycle, and if the shellplate is not aligned at that time, the primer sensor pin notes an apparent primer height error and triggers. You can tell if this shellplate pawl adjustment issue is the problem by carefully watching the shellplate (all sensors off, no brass) during the cycling of the press. If the shellplate moves ever so slightly (or more than ever so slightly) when the toolhead alignment pins FIRST enter the shellplate holes, then the shellplate pawl needs to be adjusted so that it is better aligned at the END of each cycle.   If that is happening, let me know and I can direct you to the index pawl adjustment area. Mark7 had a link to a dropbox file with a nice video with this but it's been removed and I can't find it quickly on their site. It's a confusing collection of information on that mark7 community site...

Sorry for the delayed response.

 

The Index pawl was originally out of spec when the machine came to me but is now correctly adjusted.  The primer orientation sensor is adjusted per the manual and the indicator pin moves freely, although once a case pops it up it often floats there ( I am told that they all do this).  

[Drmike]

On 1/23/2021 at 11:56 AM, MountainMan said:

What caliber are you reloading? Was it set up for you when you took delivery or did you install?

 

Please post a video of the swage station in action wherein it fails to register a ringer or primed case. Please include in the video the shellplate and also the lower portion of the sensor where the two halves come together.

 

As for the swage sense, I assume you have gone thru the manual and installation guidelines and set the swage height correctly. Obviously if the swage pin is not set high enough, it will never trigger the sensor.

 

Setting the height is is best done with a halved-piece of brass (cut length wise with a dremel tool) so you can see how high the swage enters the primer pocket. This is in the PDF instructions. It would be good to have a flawed (unswageably small)  primer pocket, or a ringer as a 'positive' calibration piece, and a normal deprimed case as a negative calibration piece. Yes you can use an un-de-primed case for that purpose in a pinch. But a true ringered pocket is ideal. If it senses a ringer it will sense a remaining primer.  The reverse may not be true if your adjustments are not correct.

 

One common issue is shellplate flex/deflection. If the shellplate nut is not screwed down enough and the shellplate has too much vertical play, and especially if you are not using a hold down die of some kind at Swage, when the swage pin comes up it just pushes up the brass without meeting enough resistance to trigger the sensor. This would also cause primer height variations and could also influence primer orientation, but mainly primer seating height issues. The shellplate should be just able to be rotated by finger when the tablet is in 'clear shell plate' mode. If you can push down on it with your thumb and see it depress down (against the spring detent ball) then it's not tight enough.

 

I assume you already checked this, but the sensor adjustment is a small 0.050 allen screw on the 'right' side of the unit.   You need to first loosen the 1/4" nut that locks its position. Back out the set screw with a 0.050 allen wrench off the small orange switch a few turns.  Tighten the screw until you hear an audible “click” from the orange microswitch (if you do not hear a click the switch may be damaged).  Slowly back off the set screw slightly until you hear another audible click (also you can see that the screw is just above the switch and no longer depressing it). Retighten the 1/4" nut. Re-run the system and see if it works correctly.

 

close up pics and a video are always helpful so in the future, post those with your first post to speed up the process!

 

 

My swage sense does not have the nut on the top of the adjustment like the one shown in the manual.  I am assuming it is an updated version which only has a hex screw to adjust it.  There does not seem to be any movement of the two red plates which would allow the switch to be triggered.  The shell plate is adjusted per the manual but I will try tightening it and see if this helps with the primers.  Another poster has suggested that my primers may be flipping because of the spring loaded deprimer I am using, however I had been using that since the start and was not having any issue.  I believe the primer issues may be from a poorly aligned primer shuttle.  More often than not they are jumping up and getting stuck at the base of the primer magazine.  I have removed the plastic cover in this area as it was constantly the area of the stoppage.

 

I am on the road for the next couple of days but will be home on Saturday and will work on your recommendations then.  Thanks for your advice. 

[MountainMan]

The red plates are normally very 'tight' and pressing on it with your hands etc rarely evinces any noticeable compression. It's normally very tight like that.

 

photos of the swage system and POS system would help when you have time.   Not sure what your swage system looks like as you describe...

 

The 'flicker' spring-loaded deprimers impart a short sharp vibration impulse through the system and can cause the primer to jump. The obvious test is to replace it with a less shocky deprimer and see if the problem is instantly solved or not.

 

Also check that your primer punch rocker moves up and down smoothly by pushing underneath it with the shellplate fully up. you should see the punch come up through the shellplate, then return back quickly and firmly after you release the finger pressure on teh bottom of the rocker. If you feel grittiness or some clunky resistance-then-it-moves, you need to strip this all apart and clean and inspect. It's rare but I heard someone had crushed primer frags down there affecting the smooth up-down motion of the punch. Never saw it myself. 

 

As you state, and with which I agree, sideways primers are almost always due to something happening from the bottom end of the primer tube stack to the point were the primer is shuttled into position above the primer punch.  Consistently fully flipped primers is more likely your primer pickup/primer filler issue.

 

M

[MountainMan]

3 minutes ago, MountainMan said:

I wouldn't know if there was an upgrade swage sense that eliminated that 1/4" nut on the small adjustment hex bolt, but if that is missing it might be an easy thing to add and see. I thought (I'm at work not at my bench) that nut was necessary to calibrate the sensor.  So a pic of that and a 9 cent 1/4" nut from Ace would be a good next step.

 

[teros135]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:31 AM, Thetimb said:

This made aligning the top plate super easy. M7 sells this on their website in the maintenance section.

 

https://imgur.com/a/m12TLET

 

Can anybody tell us any more about this?  Can't find it on the M7 site, nor any instructions for removing/replacing the top plate. 

 

[tmz]

On 2/28/2021 at 5:50 PM, teros135 said:

 

Can anybody tell us any more about this?  Can't find it on the M7 site, nor any instructions for removing/replacing the top plate. 

 

Here you go. 
https://www.markvii-loading.com/101-1240-top-plate-alignment-pin-kit.html

[teros135]

29 minutes ago, tmz said:

Here you go. 
https://www.markvii-loading.com/101-1240-top-plate-alignment-pin-kit.html

 

Thanks

[BiknSwans]

On 8/18/2020 at 5:28 PM, Clint007 said:

I have an Evolution Pro set up with the automated priming system. I'm currently using a resizing die, with the depriming assembly removed, as a 'back-up' die at Swage and Priming stations. So I'm running brass through a resizing die three times in a row. This does reduce the shellplate flex and has further reduced the primer seating variations I saw, even with the shellplate screwed down as tight as it could be consistent with being able to move by hand.

 

An engineer friend said the shellplate flexion was the issue, not the case, so why not use a Lee universal decapping die - with the decapper removed- screwed down OVER the brass so it prevents the shellplate flexion by physical contact on the shellplate. This will work the brass less and reduce the force (and clutch setting maybe) needed for the system.

 

I was a bit nervous about having that metal-on-metal action for thousands of cycles... but wondered if anyone else had a thought? Then I was envisioning some hard plastic piece for this contact around the brass. Anyone have a solution to this already so i don't have to think anymore?

Edit: I had used a Dillon swage back-up rod, but that worked by pressing on the bottom center of the inside case, and I found there was variation in that height by headstamp...So sometimes it'd trigger a clutch stop, and other times it would allow too much upward deflection of the brass. plus it was squashing down the sometimes curled up inside edges of the flash hole and I thought that might affect performance.

C

 

Clint007 - Did you ever try out your idea to use a universal decapper with the decapper removed as a hold down at the swaging station?

 

I am using a two pass system and range brass on a manual Evolution.  On the first pass I have been decapping in station 2 with a universal decapper, and swaging in station 3 using a hold down die.

 

Often I would encounter a significant increase in the force required with the handle.  Almost always, there was a case with the headstamp "X-Treme" in the swaging station.  I made a measurement and found that the distance to the inner bottom of the case from the case mouth was 0.024 inches shorter than other cases, resulting in extra force and probably a "cam over" situation.

 

I was thinking that using a universal decapper die instead of the hold down die at the swaging station might be a better setup.  I also want to avoid sizing in multiple stations and in both passes.  I only want to size when I load in pass 2, using the sizing die in the priming station.  The sizing die centers the brass very nicely for trouble free priming (knock on wood).

[BiknSwans]

I got a message from Clint007.  He is using a sizing/decapper die with the decapper removed in the swaging station, a proven option.

 

I decided I would try a universal decapping die in the swage station, with the decapper removed.  I used the Lee Universal Decapper.  I screwed in the die until it almost touched the shellplate.  I can just barely pull out a piece of paper pinched between the die and the shellplate.  With or without any case in the swaging station, there is no cam-over or additional force required to fully lower the handle.  This is to be expected because the die does not contact the case and goes outside of it.

 

I adjusted the swage rod using a primer pocket gauge.  I had to turn it in from the previous setting because the case is lifted up a little from the shellplate when the swage bar contacts the case.  I decapped a bunch of military brass, and checked the primer pocket with the gauge.  If I couldn't insert the GO gauge into the pocket, I ran the case through the swage station and checked it again.  

 

This setup is working perfectly so far.  I swaged about 30 cases with no issues.  I can't detect any movement of the shell plate, and can barely feel any resistance from swaging the primer pocket.  There were no issues with the case not being centered well enough for the swage rod to easily go into the primer pocket.

 

This setup should make loading easier, as there shouldn't be any cam-over issues when trying to swage cases with thicker than normal bases.  The first pass should be easier too.  I won't be swaging in that pass, just decapping.  

 

Here's my setup right now.

 

First pass - station 1, case feed; 2, universal decapper; 3, universal decapper (swage rod removed, should eliminate pull-back).  Remaining stations are empty.

 

Second pass - station 1, case feed; 2 empty; 3 swage; 4 size and prime; 5, expand; 6, powder drop; 7, lock-out die; 8 bullet feeder; 9, seating; 10 crimp.

Edited July 28, 2021 by BiknSwans

[BiknSwans]

On 7/26/2021 at 2:15 PM, BiknSwans said:

First pass - station 1, case feed; 2, universal decapper; 3, universal decapper (should eliminate pull-back).  Remaining stations are empty.

 

Second pass - station 1, case feed; 2 empty; 3 universal decapper (swage rod removed); 4 size and prime; 5, expand; 6, powder drop; 7, lock-out die; 8 bullet feeder; 9, seating; 10 crimp.

 

I was unable to remove the swage rod or lower it enough to allow pulled back primers to be ejected, so I cannot use station 3 to decap.  I will swage the primer pocket in both the first and second pass, but will use universal decappers as the hold down die.  At least that's the latest plan.

[erwos]

How do you adjust primer depth with the pin on the toolhead? Do you turn it clockwise or counter-clockwise to sit your primers deeper? The manual bizarrely leaves out this information.

[echotango]

11 hours ago, erwos said:

How do you adjust primer depth with the pin on the toolhead? Do you turn it clockwise or counter-clockwise to sit your primers deeper? The manual bizarrely leaves out this information.

Yes, turn it in to seat primers deeper. 

[erwos]

1 hour ago, echotango said:

Yes, turn it in to seat primers deeper. 

Thanks!

[cool]

To have a regular primer depth it is ESSENTIAL to mill the housing, which varies from one case to another

The cutter mounted on a motor, the work is fast.

[erwos]

I don't care about regular primer depth. I care about them being flush or below. I'm making blaster ammo here, it just needs to go boom.

[erwos]

Tore down my press for the first time today to install the second guide rod assembly. On the whole, not as bad as I expected. The UR videos showed how to do it pretty well, and it cycled fine when I put it back together. I wish Mark7 would have figured out a way to enable the removal of the shell plate without having to remove the case feed and loosening the retention spring retainers, but I suppose that's life... in the end, not substantially worse than the Dillon, I think.

[MountainMan]

Does anyone set up support for the case feeder and bullet feeder in other than the stand provided for the evolution\revolution?  For my new homes reloading bench and I was thinking of mounting them (bullet feeder and the case feeder) to some supports that I affix to the wall or ceiling so it’s out-of-the-way which will make access to the shellplate etc easier.   This bench is now up against a wall and not far below the ceiling joists of my workroom.  So I have solid supports to anchor the assembly that supports the case feeder and the bullet feeder.

 

 

[echotango]

6 hours ago, MountainMan said:

Does anyone set up support for the case feeder and bullet feeder in other than the stand provided for the evolution\revolution?  For my new homes reloading bench and I was thinking of mounting them (bullet feeder and the case feeder) to some supports that I affix to the wall or ceiling so it’s out-of-the-way which will make access to the shellplate etc easier.   This bench is now up against a wall and not far below the ceiling joists of my workroom.  So I have solid supports to anchor the assembly that supports the case feeder and the bullet feeder.

 

 

 

[MountainMan]

Thanks!7

[Baragasam]

On 12/4/2021 at 8:19 PM, echotango said:

 

 

That is pretty nifty, does the weight of the bullets make it rotate on that bar?

[tmz]

On 12/4/2021 at 5:15 PM, MountainMan said:

Does anyone set up support for the case feeder and bullet feeder in other than the stand provided for the evolution\revolution?  For my new homes reloading bench and I was thinking of mounting them (bullet feeder and the case feeder) to some supports that I affix to the wall or ceiling so it’s out-of-the-way which will make access to the shellplate etc easier.   This bench is now up against a wall and not far below the ceiling joists of my workroom.  So I have solid supports to anchor the assembly that supports the case feeder and the bullet feeder.

 

 

I guess you might want to see a combined them some what. 

[echotango]

10 hours ago, Baragasam said:

 

That is pretty nifty, does the weight of the bullets make it rotate on that bar?

Not at all. It is tight. 

 

https://rangepanda.com/collections/misc-products/products/mr-bullet-feeder-pipe-mount

[erwos]

Some quick notes on my Primer Xpress Evolution install thus far:

1. You need a fair bit of room behind your press for the Primer Xpress. Mine barely cleared. The movement is all left-right, so you don't need to worry about back wall clearance if it's tight. I found the noise to be a little worse than the case feeder/bullet feeder, but not remotely comparable to a trimmer setup.

2. Removing the Evo priming assembly is undocumented, despite what the Primer Xpress instructions claim. There are two bolts (one on the top, one on the bottom) that need to be removed. You then need to disassemble the Evo priming assembly (including the slider) to remove the bolt that interfaces to the press arm. This is, to put it mildly, a pain in the neck.

3. Installing the new Apex-style disc priming system isn't TOO hard. You do not need to disassemble your entire priming system to get at the press-arm connector. Just put in the top and bottom bolts, and then do the press arm connector bolt. I would "cycle" the press a few times to make sure it's working as expected.

4. Configuring the disc priming system, on the other hand, is a huge pain in the neck because they put one of the stop screws in the corner between the second guide rod bushing the priming assembly. I resorted to pliers in the end. I would STRONGLY encourage you to take all the time you need to get this exactly right and then lock it down. Incidentally, the black plastic spacer that you adjust for larger and small primers seems to have been a terrible idea, and they should have milled specific parts for small and large primers.

5. Installing the Primer Xpress is simple - you pop the disc off, pull a bottom plastic spacer, and then just press fit the Xpress in. After that, it's just a few bolts and plugging things in. Unfortunately, I found that I needed to sand/file the "ramp lips" at the bottom so they wouldn't bind the disc. Doesn't take long, but I think I would have engineered this interface differently.

6. After that, it's just rebuilding your press. I'm holding off because they sent me two large primer discs, and I'm loading purely 223 and 300 on this press (oops).

 

This would obviously be a much smoother install on an Apex10 since it already has the disc priming system (unsure if it's precisely the same as the one I got, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't). If you're loading volume on your Evo or Apex, I can't really see how this thing isn't required equipment. Only thing that would make it perfect is a primer cutoff, and, realistically, turning off the feeder more or less does that at some level.

[Baragasam]

Hi @erwos!

 

Can't agree more with most of your statements. I had to remount my whole press to another location on my reloading bench plus turn it 90 degrees clockwise to get the amount of space needed to fit the Xpress. I can also confirm that the installation manual does not include the removal of the priming system so I referred to the standard user manual for 'hints'. Which I too took my time in figuring out the removal. But instead of removing the shuttle I removed the filler tube and the shuttle arm underneath that connects to the actuating arm inside the core. In all honesty it wasn't Too bad. I also strongly support your #3 statement in function checking the priming system before moving further. I had some binds that I needed to work out.

 

While I was at this installation, I took the time to also adjust the indexing mechanism of the Evo as well prior to adjusting the indexing of the priming system. Luckily I don't reload small primer And large primer calibers so switching calibers isn't a concern of mine but I can agree that the designing of the modularity between switching from small primers and large primers could've been done better. Counter-argumentatively, it is the simplest and most cost effective way I can see Mark 7 producing it. 

 

I noticed the same about the feed ramp liner that protrudes which the disc can drag on. Instead of filing it I used a bit of force to push it into the milled out slot with the Xpress unit itself loose on the mounting areas which gave me extra wiggle room. This made it work. 

 

I would also like to suggest for people who are looking to install this unit to very carefully align the disc accurately with the priming disc indexing adjusters so that the indexing rod doesn't have to do most of the alignment but as a last stop aligning step of the priming disc. I believe this would reduce wear of the alignment hole on the disc and alignment rod itself. Also preventing unnecessary movement to the priming disc which may or may not cause primers to either flip or move in ways we don't want it to. 

 

I also agree with your last statement that a primer feed stop mechanism would be nice and that for those loading volume this primer Xpress is a must as the standard priming system only holds 100 primers and loading tubes for it is a PITA. I previously used a Vibraprime to load tubes but that would sometimes jam. Circling back to the primer feed stop idea, turning off the unit is a may or may not work idea as I believe any movement to the unit itself would still move primers down the chute. But the fact that it has a primer orientation sensor and no-primer-detected alert is a major plus, eliminating the need to spend the extra $100-$200 for the on board primer sensor. Which, argumentatively can be a requirement as it detects if a primer has been successfully installed on a primer pocket (especially loose primer pockets which don't hold primers).