Pointing Out No-shoots?

[rtr]

On one stage at our match today there was a target activated by a popper that slide across a large port in a wall basically, started out behind one side of the wall, slid across the opening and hid behind the other side of the wall. It had a partial target attached to it that remained visible after it slid across the wall.

On both sides of the port was a no-shoot tacked to the wall. One shooter, a M limited shooter who has been around IPSC a lot longer than I plugged the no shoot after the target slid across the port.

After he shot I was holding the disappearing target out into the port for the RO to see with one hand and pointed out the NS with the other hand for the RO to see. The shooter seemed a little displeased saying that at major matches it is a definite no-no, but he's always joking around so I couldn't telll how mad he was.

I was just trying to help the RO out as it was raining, cold and windy and we were trying to quickly finish our second to last stage.

So did I do wrong here?

[Nik Habicht]

So did I do wrong here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. At a major match you wouldn't need to --- because the staff usually works out their scoring path so that pass by every target, scoring or penalty. Personally I detest shooters who want to get one past the other shooters and ROs......

[eerw]

RTR..

see no problem in what you did..

hey if you shoot it..you should get it..

as Nik says..at big matches..the CRO and RO usually have a path that they check every target and they usually pay attention to areas like that..

[Caspian_45]

Nope.

He shot it, he shoud accept it. Whether or not you or someone else pointed it out. Club match or major match it don't make no difference.

[Kingman]

By pointing it out, you prevent the possibility of someone else getting credit for it.

[George]

Kingman is right about it needing to be patched ASAP and it being a favor for the next shooter.

I was a lowly D shooter many moons ago at a large match and I had to become part of a controversy because of an up-patched no-shoot. There was a tunnel that had two partial targets at the end with no-shoots on either side with full A zones available. I ventilated each of the targets with a careful pair of A's and knew this as I saw the backlight appear through the holes as they were made. On scoring, a no shoot was found and called out by a taper who was standing waiting for the RO. It was about a foot to the right of one of my pair of snake-eyes A's.

The previous shooter (and first on the squad) was an A class guy who was in contention for his division and when the RO stated that it had to be the previous shooters as all targets had been changed at lunchtime and he had watched me specifically shoot the A pairs, the named shooter immediately went into a fit and demanded that my score-sheet be pulled along with his (I guess misery loves company). Not much fun at your first big match when you knew what "you" had done. As I said to the Range Master when I was asked what happened, I only fired four shots there and watched each hole appear, it's not mine and I only want the score I earned, I didn't earn that thank you. If I had, you wouldn't be talking to me now.

Heck yes, I'll point out anything an RO overlooks, especially if I own it.

Oh yeah, my score stood. The A guy was awarded the no-shoot on the spot by the RM, but it was thrown out later when he filed a protest and an arb committee decided that it had to go away as the score sheet had already been signed without it.

Edited October 10, 2005 by George

[Kingman]

the fact that it was signed closes the deal, at least technically. But morally that person will know what they did.

That brings up the point of signing score sheets, and if you the shooter know you hit a no shoot.

How many would call their own no shoot if the scorers missed it, and how many are quick to sign a score sheet before something else is found.

[George]

I have pointed out my NS's when they are missed and waved RO's away from lengthy inspections for hits with, "no problem, it's a mike". I want my score and only my score.

[warpspeed]

If you are helping to tape / score the targets them by all means call the hits whatever they may be. However....

<Rant Mode On>

But if you are not helping, just sitting back shootin' the breeze with the other lazy shooters, I think you should keep your mouth shut.

<Rant Mode Off>

[sfinney]

Well, technically, no one should be touching any targets to tape, or otherwise move it around etc. to make more visible, until the R.O. scores it...... And you're supposed to let the R.O. make the calls, not coah him inot seeing something.... but....... but in reality, in a club match, we do what we have to to move the match along.

But the shooter was right in the strictest sense about the targets being handled though, if they hadn't been scored yet, IMHO. To much opportunity for mischief (I know, I know, but unfortunately it does happen evidently).

Edited October 10, 2005 by sfinney

[Scooter]

At the Golden Bullet this year, I made sure I got the RO's attention when I hit a no-shoot. I also made the RO correct a scoring error, he scored 2 alpha but it was really an alpha - charlie because one of them was close to the line but wasn't that close. One of the shooter who was taping asked WTF I was doing making the RO change from 2 alpha to an alpha charlie. He thought I was nuts.

What ever happen to honest people?

[Jim Norman]

Rather than pointng out a NS, just holler real loud for White Tape. It accomlishes the same thing, but now you are asking for material to patch a hole, not pointing out the hit. THis works better when the shooter is one of those that always rushes to sign his sheet to prevent the recording of a NS. Lets face it, we all know one of these people, thankfully, we don't know very many of them.

Jim Norman

[Kingman]

thats awesome Jim. I love that one. It gets the point across well.

[Genghis]

RO's and shooters can spot a good sport or a bad sport a mile away. Haywood Hale Brown said, "Sports do not build character. They reveal it." Owning up to a Mike or NS says a lot about your character.

The value of a plaque or certificate is the esteem conferred by earning it. Why would you want an award you know you didn't earn?

[ima45dv8]

Rather than pointng out a NS, just holler real loud for White Tape. It accomlishes the same thing, but now you are asking for material to patch a hole, not pointing out the hit. THis works better when the shooter is one of those that always rushes to sign his sheet to prevent the recording of a NS. Lets face it, we all know one of these people, thankfully, we don't know very many of them.

Jim Norman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[slight drift]

When I see a NS, I yell for a white paster.

When I see a Mike, I yell for a Clear paster.

[/slight drift]

[old shooter]

While taping this weekend, I came to a target mis-scored. Because the target was in a shadow, it was mis-scored A/D. I heard the call on the way to tape and when I saw it was really an A/C, I called the RO back to rescore. If you want it this way, you need to accept it the other way.

In the long run, honesty only helps you feel good about your shooting. Cheating is not an alternative to practice.

Mike

[jhgtyre]

Rather than pointng out a NS, just holler real loud for White Tape. It accomlishes the same thing, but now you are asking for material to patch a hole, not pointing out the hit. THis works better when the shooter is one of those that always rushes to sign his sheet to prevent the recording of a NS. Lets face it, we all know one of these people, thankfully, we don't know very many of them.

Jim Norman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like to yell "MEDIC!"

-ld

[lynn jones]

roger kooi you want to jump in here?

lynn

[zhunter]

By pointing it out, you prevent the possibility of someone else getting credit for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

VERY valid point!

[JFD]

Hollering for a white paster is appropriate at a local match for sure. The better you know the shooter, the louder you should holler. In the case of good friends, a lot of exagerated pointing is in order as well.

The appropriate response for the shooter would be along the lines of "He should have ducked".

[Jim Norman]

I operate on the theory that anyone tanding up after the first shot is fired is likely to be a goblin, not a good-guy.

Jim Norman

[Kimberkid]

Had this happen to me a couple weeks ago at a club match. I tagged a no shoot, right on the perf. I pointed it out to the RO, and the RO tells me that as long as it isnt a full diameter hit inside the perf, it doesnt score as a no shoot. He is a new RO trying very hard to be helpful, and I honestly didnt know. Also, as I said, I pointed it out expecting it to get scored. Another shooter then starts charging up from the peanut gallery and yelling how they have to score the no shoot, so they do. The point that gets me is that no one showed a rule book or anything, they just took this other shooters word for it. This same guy was riding me all day, pointing out and yelling the second I accidentaly stepped over a fault line, and any minor thing I did all day. I am not trying to beat the system, if I ever earn any penalty, fine, give it to me. However, lets all do our jobs. If you are an RO, do your job, if you are a shooter, do your job.

My general policy is that if my speaking up helps the shooter, such as correcting an RO that what he scored A/D is actually A/C, I say something. If my speaking up hurts his score, I shut up. Thats the breaks of the game and we all get lucky sometimes. If I see my own score is wrong, I will and always have corrected it. The Ro's in our sport by and large do a great job, so I will leave it to them to do. Worry about your own match and less about everyone else's. If you must say something, so it quietly on the sly so if doesnt look like you are trying to screw the shooter.

BTW, no one mentioned that the shooter in my story was using an illegal Production gun.

[Thomas Moore]

here are my thoughts on this issue.

major match:

i wouldn't say anything at a major, even if it was a friend. if the person knows he shot it then he should be a sportsman and take the penalty, if he doesn't then he isn't a true sportsman. i've pointed out errors on my targets at national events. cowboy up and take it like a man.

local match:

yell as loud as you can "WHITE PASTERS" especially if its a friend.

[Ron Ankeny]

My general policy is that if my speaking up helps the shooter, such as correcting an RO that what he scored A/D is actually A/C, I say something. If my speaking up hurts his score, I shut up.

Think about that for a minute.

[Schutzenmeister]

For those who seem to believe that only the RO and the shooter have a right to say anything concerning a score, I suggest they reread 11.7. Technically, ANYONE can file a third party arbitration. All RTR has done, in this instance, is a very informal excercise of a third party arbitration. This is valid at any level match, from local to World Shoot.

I do prefer the comments of "call for a white paster", or "MEDIC" ... After all, matches are supposed to be fun, especially local matches! But I really grow tired of some folks seeming to think that a third party has no right to challenge a score. Yeah, I know it can be viewed by some as dirty pool, but then you didn't shoot the penalty target ... they did. If they're not sporting enough to accept the consequences of their marksmenship, well ... I leave it to y'all.

Key is ... Don't be obnoxious about it!!!