cm 13-05 reload issue

[Diver123]

Virginia count. T1-4 engage with 2 rounds each perform mandatory reload and then 2 rounds each again. Shooter screws up his mag reloading and ends up with only 7 rounds in his first mag. Has to reload. Reloads puts the 8th shot on t-4 then continues to engage T1-4 with two rounds as required. So my under standing is he didn't perform the reload when required. That's a penalty but is it a per shot till shooter reloads again?  Which penalty on the tablet is it?

Edited January 23, 2020 by Diver123

[mchapman]

I BELIEVE THAT IT IS 10.2.4 PLUS penalty per shot. I have shot that with a six shot revolver and have to reload to get the first 8 hits THEN reload again for the second set of 8 hits and obviously with another reload to get that done.

[Diver123]

13 minutes ago, mchapman said:

I BELIEVE THAT IT IS 10.2.4 PLUS penalty per shot. I have shot that with a six shot revolver and have to reload to get the first 8 hits THEN reload again for the second set of 8 hits and obviously with another reload to get that done.

I keep going back to 10.2.4 also. It just seams dang steep of a penalty. 

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, Diver123 said:

I keep going back to 10.2.4 also. It just seams dang steep of a penalty. 

Failing to reload when mandatory is indeed a steep penalty.

[MadBomber]

I would agree with Sarge.

[broadside72]

10.2.4 - 8 penalties (per shot) plus whatever misses and no shoots as usual.

 

Can you also add 1 penalty for 10.2.2, failing to comply with WSB? Does it really matter, the stage is basically zeroed at this point.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by broadside72

[MadBomber]

If you really want to add insult to injury.

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

10.2.4 - 9 penalties (per shot) plus whatever misses and no shoots as usual.

 

Can you also add 1 penalty for 10.2.2, failing to comply with WSB? Does it really matter, the stage is basically zeroed at this point.

 

I THOUGHT double jeopardy got taken out of the equation?

[bret]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

10.2.4 - 9 penalties (per shot) plus whatever misses and no shoots as usual.

 

Can you also add 1 penalty for 10.2.2, failing to comply with WSB? Does it really matter, the stage is basically zeroed at this point.

 

how do you come up with 9?

 

[broadside72]

how do you come up with 9?

 

Typo sorry. Should be 8

[broadside72]

17 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I THOUGHT double jeopardy got taken out of the equation?

 

I am still unclear when double jeopardy applies, especially here since there is a specific rule about mandatory reloads and a specific rule about failure to follow yet the mandatory reload is specified in the stage brief.

 

If it was not meant to both be applied then what is the point of 10.2.4? 10.2.2 already has a per shot penalty for significant advantage and not reloading is a significant advantage in this case. 

[Sarge]

24 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

I am still unclear when double jeopardy applies, especially here since there is a specific rule about mandatory reloads and a specific rule about failure to follow yet the mandatory reload is specified in the stage brief.

 

If it was not meant to both be applied then what is the point of 10.2.4? 10.2.2 already has a per shot penalty for significant advantage and not reloading is a significant advantage in this case. 

After reading some more it looks like DJ only applies to extra shots. 

[TRPOperator]

Is the first issue not the 7 rounds load vs division capacity. I cant look at the rule book right now, but thought there was something on trying to game it, meaning only loading 8 etc. 

[PatJones]

Is the first issue not the 7 rounds load vs division capacity. I cant look at the rule book right now, but thought there was something on trying to game it, meaning only loading 8 etc. 

Huh? You can put in two if you want, this isn't IDPA. 

 

Back on topic..

 

So if he'd shot the targets to side lock, reloaded and just shot everything again, how would you score it? 1 miss?

 

If he just missed the target the first time around and shot 3 rounds at it after the reload how do you score it? 1 extra shot?

 

 

 

 

 

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

After reading some more it looks like DJ only applies to extra shots. 

 

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/the-mysteries-of-virginia-count/

 

Quote

The only time a competitor can get penalized twice for the same action, is for extra shots and extra hits on a VC course because we have specific rules that say you get both.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by broadside72

[Diver123]

7 hours ago, broadside72 said:

10.2.4 - 8 penalties (per shot) plus whatever misses and no shoots as usual.

 

Can you also add 1 penalty for 10.2.2, failing to comply with WSB? Does it really matter, the stage is basically zeroed at this point.

 

 

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2. 

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, broadside72 said:

 

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/the-mysteries-of-virginia-count/

 

 

 

I know this. What I meant was DJ rule applies and can not be used for extra shots because they are already covered elsewhere.

[Sarge]

deleted

Edited January 24, 2020 by Sarge

[broadside72]

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2. 

But that doesn't say you still can't get one procedural for not following. There were no extra or missing shots

[Thomas H]

12 hours ago, broadside72 said:

13 hours ago, Diver123 said:

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2. 

But that doesn't say you still can't get one procedural for not following. There were no extra or missing shots

 

The problem with that way of thinking is that technically speaking, almost any error that receives a procedural would then ALSO get a procedural for not following the WSB.

 

Example:  Most WSBs include some version of "engage all targets as they become visible from within the fault lines."  Because of that, if you take a shot while faulting the line, you get the foot fault procedural.....should you ALSO get a procedural for failing to follow the WSB?  You specifically did something that the WSB said not to do. 

 

 

 

[George Jones]

You do not apply multiple penalties for the same action/violation, UNLESS specific rules apply.

In this case, the penalty for failing to perform a mandatory reload is specific: 10.2.4 - One per shot fired until the reload is done or the end of the stage.  No limit.

Rule 10.2.2 is a general rule which concerns stage procedures.  To use it to apply an additional penalty when 10.2.4 is specific would be DJ.

This is how it has been taught for many years.  Unfortunately, bad local habits are hard to break.

[ChuckS]

5 minutes ago, George Jones said:

You do not apply multiple penalties for the same action/violation, UNLESS specific rules apply.

In this case, the penalty for failing to perform a mandatory reload is specific: 10.2.4 - One per shot fired until the reload is done or the end of the stage.  No limit.

Rule 10.2.2 is a general rule which concerns stage procedures.  To use it to apply an additional penalty when 10.2.4 is specific would be DJ.

This is how it has been taught for many years.  Unfortunately, bad local habits are hard to break.

Good morning, George.

 

Don't you think we really should explicitly add DJ to the rule book? It still comes up, albeit infrequently...

 

 

ETA: It would make a dandy 10.1.5!

Edited January 24, 2020 by ChuckS

[George Jones]

Anything which expands on the global knowledge base is always a good idea.  Unfortunately, a rule change/addition is not a quick process and we always have to beware of unintended consequences.  I will pass it on for consideration.

Meanwhile, I will suggest a NROI Blog topic to help spread the word.  You are subscribed, right?  

For those who may not know, you can reach the blog, use the link available on your profile page.

[Schutzenmeister]

George

 

A reinforcement of the difference between procedural penalties and scoring penalties might also help in the article to clear things up.  In my experience, many folks still seem to think that applying a procedural penalty (e.g., extra shots or failure to reload) then applying a scoring penalty (e.g., extra hits or hitting a no shoot) somehow constitutes DJ.  It seems folks still want to conflate procedural and scoring penalties into one thing.

 

Mike

[George Jones]

Mike,

You are correct.  It is a common error.

Anyone who has taken the RO class with me has heard this phrase:  "Shots are shots.  Hits are hits."

Shots are procedural penalties applied after "Range Is Clear" and the time has been announced and recorded.  Then, you go score targets and apply the scoring penalties (Mikes, FTSA and Extra Hits).

It's a take the horse to water thing.