cm 13-05 reload issue

[bret]

I have a hypothetical on this classifier

shooter engages T1, T2 and T3 with 2 rounds each, engages T4 with 1 round in that order, runs out of ammo.

Reloads

Engages T1, T2, T3 and T4 with 2 rounds each in that order and fired a 3rd shot at T4 as a make up shot.

How would you score that?

Edited January 25, 2020 by bret

[PatJones]

I have a hypothetical on this classifier

shooter engages T1, T2 and T3 with 2 rounds each, engages T4 with 1 round in that order, runs out of ammo.

Reloads

Engages T1, T2, T3 and T4 with 2 rounds each in that order and fired a 3rd shot at T4 as a make up shot.

How would you score that?

This is the point I was trying to make in post # 14.

That said, I believe the correct call is 8 procedurals. It's one per shot after specified reload point. The penalties for violating the WSB only apply when no other penalty fits.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[bret]

Just now, PatJones said:

This is the point I was trying to make in post # 14.

That said, I believe the correct call is 8 procedurals. It's one per shot after specified reload point. The penalties for violating the WSB only apply when no other penalty fits.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

I missed that but I don't see how it would be 8 procedurals if shot in that order, as you are allowed make up shots after a reload, the reload was done after engaging T1 -T4 and the make shot was done after T1-T4 was engaged, as the make up shot was the last shot fired in my hypothetical.

[Joe4d]

reload is required after engaging T-1 to T4  with TWO shots,,,
8 procedural

 

[broadside72]

I have a hypothetical on this classifier

shooter engages T1, T2 and T3 with 2 rounds each, engages T4 with 1 round in that order, runs out of ammo.

Reloads

Engages T1, T2, T3 and T4 with 2 rounds each in that order and fired a 3rd shot at T4 as a make up shot.

How would you score that?

Was it an extra hit?

[bret]

9 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

 

Was it an extra hit?

 

how could it be an extra hit when only 16 shots were fired, on a 16 round stage?

[broadside72]

how could it be an extra hit when only 16 shots were fired, on a 16 round stage?

I misread sorry.

[IVC]

13 hours ago, bret said:

how could it be an extra hit when only 16 shots were fired, on a 16 round stage?

A creative miss can create an extra shot hit somewhere else. 

 

EDIT: Didn't notice I actually wrote "shot" when I meant "hit." Clearly, the sentence doesn't make any sense with "shot..."

Edited January 25, 2020 by IVC

[bret]

Just now, IVC said:

A creative miss can create an extra shot somewhere else. 

for an extra shot penalty to be assessed, an extra shot would have to be fired, 16 shots fired in a 16 shot stage can't be an extra shot fired.

[IVC]

6 minutes ago, bret said:

for an extra shot penalty to be assessed, an extra shot would have to be fired, 16 shots fired in a 16 shot stage can't be an extra shot fired.

Extra shot != extra hit. 

[Southpaw]

2 hours ago, bret said:

I have a hypothetical on this classifier

shooter engages T1, T2 and T3 with 2 rounds each, engages T4 with 1 round in that order, runs out of ammo.

Reloads

Engages T1, T2, T3 and T4 with 2 rounds each in that order and fired a 3rd shot at T4 as a make up shot.

How would you score that?

 

The WSB says:  "engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each, make a mandatory reload using a magazine from the table only, then engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each."

 

The point at which the mandatory reload is required is after T1-T4 are each shot with 2 rounds, not just after 8 rounds are fired at any targets.  So in this ridiculous scenario the mandatory reload wouldn't be required until after he fired the 2nd shot at T4 (the 3rd to last shot he fired).  Therefore only 2 shots were fired after the point when the mandatory reload was required, and he never made the mandatory reload.  So 2 procedurals for 10.2.4.

 

[bret]

7 hours ago, IVC said:

Extra shot != extra hit. 

An extra shot does not equal an extra hit.

 

Extra shot penalties are assessed at the shooting area, extra hits are assessed at the targets if there are any.

 

Can't have extra shots when only 16 shots were fired in a 16 round cof.

 

If a 5th shot ends up on a target then that is an extra hit.

[bret]

7 hours ago, Southpaw said:

 

The WSB says:  "engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each, make a mandatory reload using a magazine from the table only, then engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each."

 

The point at which the mandatory reload is required is after T1-T4 are each shot with 2 rounds, not just after 8 rounds are fired at any targets.  So in this ridiculous scenario the mandatory reload wouldn't be required until after he fired the 2nd shot at T4 (the 3rd to last shot he fired).  Therefore only 2 shots were fired after the point when the mandatory reload was required, and he never made the mandatory reload.  So 2 procedurals for 10.2.4.

 

Not a ridiculous scenario, it is a way to shoot the stage without getting any procedurals.

 

The mandatory reload is after engaging T1 -T4, T4 was engaged, then a reload occurred. 

[IVC]

5 hours ago, bret said:

Can't have extra shots when only 16 shots were fired in a 16 round cof.

Yes, my bad, I just noticed I typed "shot" when I meant "hit." My post doesn't make sense with "shot." I corrected the post. 

 

The point is that when aiming at, e.g., T1, one can hit another target and create an extra hit even if everything else is in order. That's all. 

[Southpaw]

5 hours ago, bret said:

The mandatory reload is after engaging T1 -T4, T4 was engaged, then a reload occurred. 

 

That's not what the WSB says.

[IVC]

6 hours ago, bret said:

The mandatory reload is after engaging T1 -T4, T4 was engaged, then a reload occurred. 

WSB requires a reload after each of T1-T4 has been engaged with two rounds. There is nothing preventing a shooter from reloading after each shot, or after each target. It's just that the WSB specifies a "mandatory reload" (as opposed to any other reload) after each target has been engaged with two rounds. 

 

So, if you fire 7 rounds and reload, the reload is not the "mandatory reload" required by WSB. It's similar to what a 6-shot revolver would have to do - an intermediate, arbitrary reload. Until each target is engaged with exactly two rounds, you get procedurals for the number of shots/hits (you cannot fire more or less than 2 per target until the reload). Whether you shoot at the targets or do any additional intermediary reloads, you keep collecting procedurals. When you finally hit the last target with two rounds, you now have to reload per WSB and then AGAIN engage all the targets with two shots each. If you don't engage some targets after the reload, you get procedurals for failure to shoot at the target too. 

 

Rule 10.2.4 is clear that you collect procedurals per-shot for failure to do the reload. There is nothing that says that the incorrect extra shots before the reload somehow count against procedurals for failure to shoot at the target after you (finally) reload. You still have to fire the specified number of shots and engage each target (with at least one) AFTER the reload, even if you shot at them before. All you get to do is to keep the hits you might have collected when you also collected procedurals, but that can be a double-edged sword if you end up with too many on a target. 

[Southpaw]

27 minutes ago, IVC said:

If you don't engage some targets after the reload, you get procedurals for failure to shoot at the target too. 

 

Nope.  See 9.5.7:  "A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7)."

 

If you shot all targets before the reload then they were all shot at during the course of fire.

[IVC]

Delete

Edited January 25, 2020 by IVC

[bret]

7 hours ago, IVC said:

WSB requires a reload after each of T1-T4 has been engaged with two rounds. There is nothing preventing a shooter from reloading after each shot, or after each target. It's just that the WSB specifies a "mandatory reload" (as opposed to any other reload) after each target has been engaged with two rounds. 

 

So, if you fire 7 rounds and reload, the reload is not the "mandatory reload" required by WSB. It's similar to what a 6-shot revolver would have to do - an intermediate, arbitrary reload. Until each target is engaged with exactly two rounds, you get procedurals for the number of shots/hits (you cannot fire more or less than 2 per target until the reload). Whether you shoot at the targets or do any additional intermediary reloads, you keep collecting procedurals. When you finally hit the last target with two rounds, you now have to reload per WSB and then AGAIN engage all the targets with two shots each. If you don't engage some targets after the reload, you get procedurals for failure to shoot at the target too. 

 

Rule 10.2.4 is clear that you collect procedurals per-shot for failure to do the reload. There is nothing that says that the incorrect extra shots before the reload somehow count against procedurals for failure to shoot at the target after you (finally) reload. You still have to fire the specified number of shots and engage each target (with at least one) AFTER the reload, even if you shot at them before. All you get to do is to keep the hits you might have collected when you also collected procedurals, but that can be a double-edged sword if you end up with too many on a target. 

one shot at a target is engaging the target.

 

[ima45dv8]

11 hours ago, bret said:

one shot at a target is engaging the target.

Absolutely true.

But in this case the WSB specifies "...engage with only two rounds, perform a mandatory reload...". 

The target was engaged but only with one round, which does not satisfy the prescribed stage procedure before the reload.

[bret]

9 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

Absolutely true.

But in this case the WSB specifies "...engage with only two rounds, perform a mandatory reload...". 

The target was engaged but only with one round, which does not satisfy the prescribed stage procedure before the reload.

What procedural would you give for that?

 

Post the applicable rule.

[ima45dv8]

8 procedurals.  Same as has been repeated here, 10.2.4.

Even though 9 shots were fired after the reload the rule says the max penalty is counted from the point where the reload should have occurred. 

A lot of folks in this thread are wanting to dogpile an extra penalty for not following the WSB, but the above already addresses the error, so I would not add one.

[bret]

25 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

8 procedurals.  Same as has been repeated here, 10.2.4.

Even though 9 shots were fired after the reload the rule says the max penalty is counted from the point where the reload should have occurred. 

A lot of folks in this thread are wanting to dogpile an extra penalty for not following the WSB, but the above already addresses the error, so I would not add one.

If the shooter engaged t1 t2 t3 with 2 shots each, engaged t 4 with 1 shot, reloaded, engaged t1,t2,t3 and t4 with shots each in that order and then fired a make up shot on t4 as his last shot fired, how is that scored?

[ima45dv8]

The same, of course. What you just described is still an early reload before the initial required eight shots were completed, with no subsequent reload to stop the accumulation of penalties under 10.2.4.

 

Would you score it differently?

[bret]

6 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

The same, of course. What you just described is still an early reload before the initial required eight shots were completed, with no subsequent reload to stop the accumulation of penalties under 10.2.4.

 

Would you score it differently?

in my hypothetical, he engaged t1 through t4, reloaded, engaged t1 through t4 and then a make up shot on t4.

You can't penalize someone for taking to few shots on a target.

Can you re engage a target after you have engaged it?

If he engaged t1 through t4 with only 7 shots, reloaded and then engaged t1 through t4 with 8 shots, how would you score it?

Did he still reload early?