Level 2 USPSA Major Match Fee vs Value

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, Dutchman195 said:

But then the people that put in the work to shoot at a M or GM level arent rewarded with anything?  

 

Well, this isn't a job.  So expecting financial rewards from an amateur sport is probably a setup for disappointment.

Edited November 15, 2019 by elguapo

[robchavous]

If you're gonna do prizes I think the only fair way is straight order of finish for the division. Have a prize table for each division and populate them based on participation. You can recognize class "wins" with a plaque/trophy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[elguapo]

5 minutes ago, robchavous said:

If you're gonna do prizes I think the only fair way is straight order of finish for the division. Have a prize table for each division and populate them based on participation. You can recognize class "wins" with a plaque/trophy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

 

I like that

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, robchavous said:

If you're gonna do prizes I think the only fair way is straight order of finish for the division. Have a prize table for each division and populate them based on participation. You can recognize class "wins" with a plaque/trophy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

 

This sounds good, more so to better shooters I'm sure. But, if you shoot on Thursday - Saturday and leave who walks the table for you on Sunday after the match? How long does the process of giving out prizes take? I've never shot a match that did this I really don't know. It sounds like it would make the last day that much longer for staff who are probably looking to get headed home.

 

 

[robchavous]

 
This sounds good, more so to better shooters I'm sure. But, if you shoot on Thursday - Saturday and leave who walks the table for you on Sunday after the match? How long does the process of giving out prizes take? I've never shot a match that did this I really don't know. It sounds like it would make the last day that much longer for staff who are probably looking to get headed home.
 
 

It's simple. Either you or your delegate walks. If nobody is there for you then you don't get anything.

I'm also completely fine with no prizes. Give it all back to the staff or just don't have anything and reduce my cost.

I can't say I've ever shot a major because of a prize table. I'm there trying to win and beat other good shooters that I may not get to regularly compete against.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[RadarTech]

If you're gonna do prizes I think the only fair way is straight order of finish for the division. Have a prize table for each division and populate them based on participation. You can recognize class "wins" with a plaque/trophy.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

From a staff perspective, this can suck the fun out of something..

When X Competitor thinks that D to C or a C to an A hit will make or break them in the match they often make life miserable for everyone else..

Order of finish cash prizes typically make the matches far more challenging to officiate..


The only matches I’ve seen prize table walks at are matches that are multi day where the entire competitor base is around the last day.. IE Nats.. most other do cash payback..

I have a problem with cash payback..

If you are doing that and a staff member comes out of pocket to work the match, then the staff is actually PAYING the payback...

So that shooter getting $150 or $1000 is money that wouldn’t be used to get staff expenses covered... yes there have been matches that do cash payback while staff gets a free match fee, a T-shirt, and free lunches and then have to cover their own hotel..

I remember working one where the roach hotel was $85 a night.... for 3 days...

[RadarTech]

It's simple. Either you or your delegate walks. If nobody is there for you then you don't get anything.

I'm also completely fine with no prizes. Give it all back to the staff or just don't have anything and reduce my cost.

I can't say I've ever shot a major because of a prize table. I'm there trying to win and beat other good shooters that I may not get to regularly compete against.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

I’d have to say that maybe 20%of match participant’s are super competitive and care about where they place more than a casual oh ok I got 1st (fill in the blank).

80% just want to have fun... so In my opinion this view is not the norm..

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, robchavous said:

It's simple. Either you or your delegate walks. If nobody is there for you then you don't get anything.

I'm also completely fine with no prizes. Give it all back to the staff or just don't have anything and reduce my cost.

I can't say I've ever shot a major because of a prize table. I'm there trying to win and beat other good shooters that I may not get to regularly compete against.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

 

The nobody to be your delegate you get nothing sounds lame. That makes is order of finish but not really, because you could win the match and not get s#!t.

 

Most of the prizes at matches come from sponsors, so getting rid of the prize table wont have much effect on your cost. I don't see a problem with getting rid of the prize table and most of the sponsors and just having the match. It would make life a lot easier for some parts of the staff.

 

I also have never shot a match for the prize table. I can remember lots of people trying to get me into 3 gun. Saying things like "you can win so much stuff"......meh.

 

3 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

 

yes there have been matches that do cash payback while staff gets a free match fee, a T-shirt, and free lunches and then have to cover their own hotel..
 

 

 

That is messed up, take care of your staff above all IMO.

[RadarTech]

 
That is messed up, take care of your staff above all IMO.

Yep... and since then they have changed their ways. I think... I have not helped that match in some time....

I remember telling them that wouldn’t go too well long term— but I digress..

I believe we are at a cross roads for staff.. soon match fees will go up to make sure staff is not paying to work.

[Dutchman195]

16 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

When X Competitor thinks that D to C or a C to an A hit will make or break them in the match they often make life miserable for everyone else..
 

 

The competitor needs to know that its not going to make a difference. 

But in the same respect, while it would make me frustrated after the 17th overlay, I do think that at a Major, it is in the rules that a competitor can challenge a call. And they aren't there to shoot for anyone but themselves, so why would they not fight for every point that they rightfully deserve?

[Racinready300ex]

If a shot is close I'm asking for a overlay now, prizes wont change that. If it's close and means a mike or a NS or I think it's a double I'll even ask the CRO to confirm. I won't take it to the MD, but some do. I doubt this would really get worse with performance based prizes. 

[broadside72]

Might be nice to throw in a cash raffle. I am familiar with the 50/50 type where you buy tickets and you can win half the collection. But maybe to a 40/30/30 where all shooters (staff included) can win 40%. Then there is a drawing for staff only for 30% (so possible to win 70% if you are staff) and then 30% for the match host. Or do some other reasonable split to help keep staff wanting to help.

 

[MikeBurgess]

For me a USPSA L2 match is about the shooting and competition, At the $150 price point I would expect 12 or more good stages, a well staffed well run match, these are the non negotiable items, and its unlikely I'll return. Beyond the must haves it becomes a balancing act of what makes the match special? what makes it stand out from the others that are also providing the basics?  a killer prize table,  one with a awesome BBQ lunch, unique stage props (that work) 

the way I look at it if there were 2 L2 matches for $150 the same weekend what will make one special.

 

Mike 

 

[zzt]

3 hours ago, robchavous said:

It's simple. Either you or your delegate walks. If nobody is there for you then you don't get anything.

 

That's just silly.

 

Also, I simply cannot get over the notion that some of you think you deserve better prizes just because you shoot well. That is also silly.

Edited November 15, 2019 by zzt

[robchavous]

 
Also, I simply cannot get over the notion that some of you think you deserve better prizes just because you shoot well. That is also silly.

Isn't that how competition usually works?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[zzt]

Just now, robchavous said:

Isn't that how competition usually works?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

 

 Not from the prize table.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

That's just silly.

 

Also, I simply cannot get over the notion that some of you think you deserve better prizes just because you shoot well. That is also silly.

it depends on the point of the prizes. Are they supposed to be a substitute for trophies/recognition? Some people think so. I personally don't really care, but I have observed that people in general seem to have more fun when valuable merchandise is raffled off. Most other sports I've done (bicycle and motorcycle racing), the majority of the prizes are raffled off and a few sometimes handed out to division winners, but there's a lot less whining about it (at least there was 20 years ago, lol).

 

[robchavous]

 Not from the prize table.

So in your opinion for competitive activities those who do better in the competition should not get better prizes?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, RadarTech said:

I believe we are at a cross roads for staff.. soon match fees will go up to make sure staff is not paying to work.
 

I think we have jumped the shark in that respect, and I'm glad for it. The last year or so I've both worked and shot some matches where staff selection is somewhat competitive due to the perks and payback, and the level of officiating and smooth operation at those matches has been measurably better. It's worth an extra $20-50 for sure to have staff that are skilled, experienced, courteous and motivated. In 2019, A1 and A2 and the oregon state match were really outstanding in that respect.  For a 1 day section match where staff shoot 1 day and everyone else the next, I don't expect the same level of officiating, or the same expense, but if you expect good RO's to work for 3 days, you need to make it worthwhile and not just rely on good karma.

[broadside72]

no "prizes", just 100% raffle, the number of tickets you get is your overall placement (or by division). Then random draws to select winner and a random draw to select from list of items.

so your performance is rewarded by higher opportunity to win something cool. then regular trophies/plaques for top 3 in division/class

 

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, robchavous said:

So in your opinion for competitive activities those who do better in the competition should not get better prizes?
 

 

There is no reason that merchandise prizes should have any relation to the competition part of a match. In many sports they don't at all. From a sponsor perspective (I used to help sponsor bicycle races when I managed a shop) a random prize draw is MUCH more preferable. I don't really care about reaching the top sponsored athletes, I want to market to joe sixpack who actually spends money on the sport.

 

If you do better in the competition, you should get the bigger, better trophy with a smaller number on it. That's the whole point of competition, not merchandise prizes.

 

What about all the people that arent going to win? Should they just be using their entry fees to buy cool prizes for the top dogs? If that were me, I would probably stop showing up.  I personally would rather people show up to matches, even if they are not training as hard anymore, or just don't have the same level of participation as the top contenders.

Edited November 15, 2019 by motosapiens

[zzt]

This ^^^^.

[MikeyScuba]

There was a YouTube video of an interview of one of the founders of either 3gun or USPSA.  Can’t for the life of me find his name (is a reg guest on Gun Stories).  He basically said it started out with the same top guys taking all the prizes while joe blow eventually got fed up of paying and no chance of anything.

So the sport evolved to random draws for prizes with the top shooters now getting sponsored.

 

what I don’t need to hear though is the older shooters telling me how many guns used to be given away at the IRC’s in years past. 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, MikeyScuba said:

what I don’t need to hear though is the older shooters telling me how many guns used to be given away at the IRC’s in years past. 

how bout if I just tell you how many guns they gave away at Area 2 last week?

[zzt]

I'll explain exactly how I think a sponsor donated merchandise prize table should work.  Exactly as done at the East Coast Steel Championship prize table.  You register for the event and are given a token of some kind.  You walk into the prize shed, present your token and drawn a numbered something from the bin/board/etc.  You present what you drew and they search for the bag with that number on it.  When they find it they give it to you.  Done.  At the last four Championships I've drawn a bag full of swabs and cleaning supplies, a back pack I can't use, a two rifle case that I will shortly be able to use and an XD-9 4" (one of nine guns Springfield donated).  My luck is getting better.

 

Winners of the various Divisions get big money prizes.  That's why they show up.  At a match with no payouts for winners, nary a one of the really good shooters show up.

 

This year, because of special circumstances, the MD asked if I would shoot on Friday morning.  I did.  The notion that I should have to wait until 6PM on Sunday (another 3.5 hour round trip) to draw form the prize table is just daft.

Edited November 15, 2019 by zzt