Level 2 USPSA Major Match Fee vs Value

[phxbenk]

13 hours ago, motosapiens said:

? I raced mountain bikes all through the 90's and I saw a crap-ton of raffle prizes, including some pretty high dollar items. My shop also provided some of those items at local races.  Maybe things have changed recently.

I have raced over the past 10yrs around the Southwest, Northwest, Alaska, etc and never seen a raffle. You do always get useful stuff in your registration bag though(nice waterbottle, tire sealant, patch kit, seatbag, race nutrition, etc) There however seems to be more of a cash purse at the bigger races for the pros. A couple I used to do have $30-50k split for top male and female competitors.

Not saying you can really compare shooting to that though, just anecdotally mentioning ways other events are run.

Edited November 21, 2019 by phxbenk

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, assaultthesalt said:

Amen to that .....

 

Yup.

The Level II matches I run will have a lunch break.  Mostly because my staff need a break.  They need time to change out targets, time to take a look at stage props, and most importantly, time to sit down and have some food and drink a bunch of water. 

 

It also helps even up squads between the morning and afternoon, but mostly---it is for the staff break.  (And most competitors need a break also.  While some are indeed okay with a break while other people shoot, many folks, particularly on boiling-hot days, need a little time in the shade drinking water.)

 

It has been interesting looking at some of the other things people want/say they need for Level II matches, some of which wouldn't have actually occurred to me as being important.  Useful and interesting thread.

 

[phxbenk]

16 hours ago, egd5 said:

I'm going to chime in again about lunch. You young studs who don't need a lunch can go and do pushups or whatever to keep your juices flowing if you want. But us old farts need a break. It's not going to hurt you if you do take a break, but not having a break can and will hurt many others (as RadarTech said).

Taking a lunch or break is fine, however I don't see a purpose for match fees to increase for everyone due to the match paying for it for competitors. 

[mchapman]

1 hour ago, phxbenk said:

Taking a lunch or break is fine, however I don't see a purpose for match fees to increase for everyone due to the match paying for it for competitors. 

Why would you think that the match fees would not go up if a lunch is provided? ANY thing that is added to a match has a cost to It  in time, or  materials or actual money, and usually it's all three. Some may not find value in it, but many others do. That is where it is up to the MD to determine if the added cost is worth it or not.

[phxbenk]

32 minutes ago, mchapman said:

Why would you think that the match fees would not go up if a lunch is provided? ANY thing that is added to a match has a cost to It  in time, or  materials or actual money, and usually it's all three. Some may not find value in it, but many others do. That is where it is up to the MD to determine if the added cost is worth it or not.

That is not what I was saying. I was saying not providing a lunch will keep the cost down. 

[RadarTech]

That is not what I was saying. I was saying not providing a lunch will keep the cost down. 

This is counter intuitive.

Food vendors require a minimum..
Say $1800 minimum ... and ask for say $8 per person. If you have 50 staff for 3 days that’s $1200. To even get a food vendor for staff it is often - the match will have to guarantee that $1800 and if the vendor doesn’t make it via sales and our staff paid meals, the match will have to cover the difference. These numbers vary by range, area, time of year and nearby festival activity... and actually I think $8 is kinda low....


Some matches include this in the match fee so there isn’t wasted $$. Ok so we had X competitors and only 75 ate the meal... but it was a bonus on the staff... I know most that have shot in Area 8 have seen southern Bobbi Q... it’s good food... and every match I’ve seen him at the match paid for all competitors to eat as part of the match fee...

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

 

This is counter intuitive.

Food vendors require a minimum..
Say $1800 minimum ... and ask for say $8 per person. If you have 50 staff for 3 days that’s $1200. To even get a food vendor for staff it is often - the match will have to guarantee that $1800 and if the vendor doesn’t make it via sales and our staff paid meals, the match will have to cover the difference. These numbers vary by range, area, time of year and nearby festival activity... and actually I think $8 is kinda low....
 

 

 

this is a good point, one way or another you need to provide lunch for the staff.

when shooting, I am ambivalent about lunch. If it's a half-day format, I don't eat at the range. If it's all day and lunch is provided I eat lightly. If it's all day and buy your own lunch, I bring my own eats. Clearly some people like lunch being included/available/whatever. Doesn't bother me either way.

[zzt]

I've shot Area 8 and Bobbie Q.  Not very good.  Plus, by the time I get to eat there is very little left and it's ice cold.  That's why I bring my own food everywhere.  If I'm ever surprised by good food, I'll eat it.  If it is an all day match I do like the lunch break.  I'm 72 and need it.  Not providing lunch for the staff is inexcusable.  Those people work hard and should have no out of pocket costs other than maybe for gas to come and go.

[aandabooks]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

I've shot Area 8 and Bobbie Q.  Not very good.  Plus, by the time I get to eat there is very little left and it's ice cold.  That's why I bring my own food everywhere.  If I'm ever surprised by good food, I'll eat it.  If it is an all day match I do like the lunch break.  I'm 72 and need it.  Not providing lunch for the staff is inexcusable.  Those people work hard and should have no out of pocket costs other than maybe for gas to come and go.

Come to the IL Section next year.  Our match director gets BBQ catered in and it is great.  Part of the overall match fee for all competitors and staff.  

[ziebart]

There needs to be time for lunch, but see more and more picky eaters. To me providing cash for the ROs to bring their own or making a sandwich run to Jimmy Johns or the like seems the way to go. 

 

As a shooter having food available for purchase is convenient, but if I know ahead of time to bring a sandwich I will.

[Joe4d]

yeh , I think folks are talking about  different things when they say lunch.
1 time,
2 provided food funded from match registration
3. onsite pay vendor.
1.Far as time,, yes,, 1 for staff mainly. Competitors ? probably not. MAtch should be run in 2 squads over a couple days. with AM and PM squads. Folks could squad twice so some can pick shoot in one day. They would get a lunch break.
2, I oppose using match fees to buy competitor food. I am with ZZT you cant trust it, so I will have my food with me anyways, just assume lowering the cost and less hassle for the MD.

3. Onsite pay vendor, I am indifferent. Although it would be a way to not MAKE folks pay for a lunch they dont want, but also provide staff lunch if they want it using match funds for them.

[phxbenk]

20 hours ago, RadarTech said:

 

This is counter intuitive.

Food vendors require a minimum..
Say $1800 minimum ... and ask for say $8 per person. If you have 50 staff for 3 days that’s $1200. To even get a food vendor for staff it is often - the match will have to guarantee that $1800 and if the vendor doesn’t make it via sales and our staff paid meals, the match will have to cover the difference. These numbers vary by range, area, time of year and nearby festival activity... and actually I think $8 is kinda low....


Some matches include this in the match fee so there isn’t wasted $$. Ok so we had X competitors and only 75 ate the meal... but it was a bonus on the staff... I know most that have shot in Area 8 have seen southern Bobbi Q... it’s good food... and every match I’ve seen him at the match paid for all competitors to eat as part of the match fee...

 

Of course you have to feed or at least comp your staff for food. One of the things a local match did(Steel, not USPSA) was a Jimmy Johns order, pre-selected.

If you wanted a sandwich, you selected it on entry and paid for it as an additional cost. All staff got sandwiches/chips included. Jimmy Johns/Subway/etc do not have a minimum order and you can have them delivered or have a staff member go get it.

[CHA-LEE]

57 minutes ago, phxbenk said:

Of course you have to feed or at least comp your staff for food. One of the things a local match did(Steel, not USPSA) was a Jimmy Johns order, pre-selected.

If you wanted a sandwich, you selected it on entry and paid for it as an additional cost. All staff got sandwiches/chips included. Jimmy Johns/Subway/etc do not have a minimum order and you can have them delivered or have a staff member go get it.

 

Yeah, that works if the sandwich shop is down the street. Not so much when the closest fast food or restaurant is at least 20+ miles away. For the range I host my Level 2 match at it's not "Close" to anything. Everything extra (Food, Water, Ice, etc) needs to be prearranged and hauled to the range. Since I know that its not a viable option for competitors to leave the range and come back in time for lunch, I arrange to have lunch provided for everyone. I also guarantee that the provided lunch is GOOD by using a known good resource to provide it.

 

If a competitor has special dietary requirements then I would expect that they provide their own meals at the range. Its not viable to expect a remotely provided range lunch service to have a full menu of options for all of the crazy special diets that people have.

[phxbenk]

25 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Yeah, that works if the sandwich shop is down the street. Not so much when the closest fast food or restaurant is at least 20+ miles away. For the range I host my Level 2 match at it's not "Close" to anything. Everything extra (Food, Water, Ice, etc) needs to be prearranged and hauled to the range. Since I know that its not a viable option for competitors to leave the range and come back in time for lunch, I arrange to have lunch provided for everyone. I also guarantee that the provided lunch is GOOD by using a known good resource to provide it.

 

If a competitor has special dietary requirements then I would expect that they provide their own meals at the range. Its not viable to expect a remotely provided range lunch service to have a full menu of options for all of the crazy special diets that people have.

Just stating what worked smooth in the past, not every option fits every situation, however the same effort to organize a vendor to be on-site providing X number of lunches could also apply to calling the local sandwich shop and asking to have X number of lunches be ready for pickup at a certain time or delivery to the range. Many places will deliver if you spend enough.

[CHA-LEE]

3 minutes ago, phxbenk said:

Just stating what worked smooth in the past, not every option fits every situation, however the same effort to organize a vendor to be on-site providing X number of lunches could also apply to calling the local sandwich shop and asking to have X number of lunches be ready for pickup at a certain time or delivery to the range. Many places will deliver if you spend enough.

 

Have you arranged 200+ lunches per day for a major match before? What sounds like it would be a "Simple" process is not so simple, especially when you start giving people options in what they can order/eat.

[EEH]

Most time you can’t go wrong with hamburger or hotdog’s chips and cold drink.

[zzt]

22 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

especially when you start giving people options in what they can order/eat.

 

That would be a logistical nightmare.  Plus, I can flat out tell you it doesn't work.  Even if all the orders were made correctly, people change their minds and take something other than what they ordered.  Then other people have to eat something they didn't order, or not eat at all because they have an allergy or something that prevents them from eating what is left.

 

Your idea of having a known good caterer prepare the food it a good one.  Just be sure to have something(s) non-pork and non-meat for the number of shooters who cannot eat one or both of those things.  I happen to be allergic the the entire family of bell peppers.  That's another reason I bring my own food.  The volunteer servers have no idea what's in the food.

 

The idea of a vendor truck in lieu of a provided meal is another of those ideas that just does not work.  It disrupts the match, because they cannot make a large number of orders quickly, especially since each one it picked form a long menu.  I can't tell you how many times I've called for a shooter who wasn't there because he was at the food truck.  The apology is always the same.  "I had no idea it would take so long", or a variation of that.

 

So if you are going to provide lunch, make sure the food is good and the hot food is served hot.  Placing a hot pulled pork in a large Aluminum foil pan and putting it on a table with no hot plate guarantees the food will be cold before all of it is served.  Same for Hamburgers.  They don't stay hot for long.  A woman who catered one of my shoots had many tricks up her sleeve.  She would pre-cook and sear all the hamburgers, then drop them into Coke.  Weird, but effective.  The soda kept them moist.  She would pull some out, put them on the grill and in less than a minute or two could produce a new batch of hot, tasty hamburgers.  She had tricks for the other foods as well.  So everyone always got hot food.  I wish she had stayed in business.  I'd still be using her.

Edited November 22, 2019 by zzt

[CHA-LEE]

3 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

That would be a logistical nightmare.  Plus, I can flat out tell you it doesn't work.  Even if all the orders were made correctly, people change their minds and take something other than what they ordered.  Then other people have to eat something they didn't order, or not eat at all because they have an allergy or something that prevents them from eating what is left.

 

Your idea of having a known good caterer prepare the food it a good one.  Just be sure to have something(s) non-pork and non-meat for the number of shooters who cannot eat one or both of those things.  I happen to be allergic the the entire family of bell peppers.  That's another reason I bring my own food.  The volunteer servers have no idea what's in the food.

 

The idea of a vendor truck in lieu of a provided meal is another of those ideas that just does not work.  It disrupts the match, because they cannot make a large number of orders quickly, especially since each one it picked form a long menu.  I can't tell you how many times I've called for a shooter who wasn't there because he was at the food truck.  The apology is always the same.  "I had no idea it would take so long", or a variation of that.

 

Amen brother!!! We are on the same page. The problem is that the average competitor attending a major doesn't consider all of these logistical nightmare scenarios.

[phxbenk]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

Have you arranged 200+ lunches per day for a major match before? What sounds like it would be a "Simple" process is not so simple, especially when you start giving people options in what they can order/eat.

Nope, just a competitor. But if the alternative is a single option on-site, you are in the same boat as a single sandwich option(using sandwiches as an example) but now tied to spending a certain amount if there is a minimum through the vendor.

It was just a thought. The food at some of my last majors attended was bad enough I tossed it and ate a Cliff Bar. Maybe I am just jaded as to the quality of food that can honestly be provided, and I am not the only one that feels that way.

Edited November 22, 2019 by phxbenk

[motosapiens]

One thing I'm getting from this thread is how much more stuff an MD has to think of and prepare for besides the stuff that I do (usually CRO of a a field stage). Thanks very much to the folks like cha-lee that make that happen at various L2 and L3 matches. When some little thing goes wrong, it helps to remember just how many hundreds of things have gone unnoticed because they were done right....

[ChuckS]

45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

One thing I'm getting from this thread is how much more stuff an MD has to think of and prepare for besides the stuff that I do (usually CRO of a a field stage). Thanks very much to the folks like cha-lee that make that happen at various L2 and L3 matches. When some little thing goes wrong, it helps to remember just how many hundreds of things have gone unnoticed because they were done right....

At a recent special match, I asked the MD what caused the schedule slip in the afternoon. His answer was "People deciding if they wanted to have Guacamole on their burrito".

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

At a recent special match, I asked the MD what caused the schedule slip in the afternoon. His answer was "People deciding if they wanted to have Guacamole on their burrito".

 

I can confirm that exact situation in fact happens. Several years ago we offered a single basic decision to be made during the distribution of lunch and it added 30 minutes total to the whole process. Needless to say options or decisions like that have been eliminated from the lunch time process. Now it goes like this. Here is your yummy food, thanks for coming, now beat it so we can get the next guy their food.

 

Another food related factor that you have to account for is how much trash is generated by the specific things you choose to distribute. Making the wrong decisions with excessive individually rapped items can easily double or triple the amount of trash generated. Double the trash requires double the frequency in emptying the trash or then you have extensive cleanup after the match because there is trash everywhere.

[36873687]

First off have to say the level 2 I been to have been ran smooth. I think MD is rough damn job. Most ro are shooting for free an u get em at the end on Sunday they ready to go home. Cut out the lunch for shooters have water an match shirt.An plaques. Use extra money to feed staff who are there cause they love the sport. 

[36873687]

An gun drawing an actual raffle 

[Brooke]

I think match shirts are nice even when included at an extra (fair) price. Lunch breaks are good but I don't care if lunch is included. I don't want to pay for a lunch that I don't want.