Level 2 USPSA Major Match Fee vs Value

[MikeBurgess]

47 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

There is no reason that merchandise prizes should have any relation to the competition part of a match. In many sports they don't at all. From a sponsor perspective (I used to help sponsor bicycle races when I managed a shop) a random prize draw is MUCH more preferable. I don't really care about reaching the top sponsored athletes, I want to market to joe sixpack who actually spends money on the sport.

 

If you do better in the competition, you should get the bigger, better trophy with a smaller number on it. That's the whole point of competition, not merchandise prizes.

 

What about all the people that arent going to win? Should they just be using their entry fees to buy cool prizes for the top dogs? If that were me, I would probably stop showing up.  I personally would rather people show up to matches, even if they are not training as hard anymore, or just don't have the same level of participation as the top contenders.

this,

 

I guarantee Springfield, Leupold, and Springer Precision, got way more out of my wife winning a random draw CO gun at a match this summer than they would have if the match winner sold it on here the week after the match.

[RadarTech]

 
There is no reason that merchandise prizes should have any relation to the competition part of a match. In many sports they don't at all. From a sponsor perspective (I used to help sponsor bicycle races when I managed a shop) a random prize draw is MUCH more preferable. I don't really care about reaching the top sponsored athletes, I want to market to joe sixpack who actually spends money on the sport.
 
If you do better in the competition, you should get the bigger, better trophy with a smaller number on it. That's the whole point of competition, not merchandise prizes.
 
What about all the people that arent going to win? Should they just be using their entry fees to buy cool prizes for the top dogs? If that were me, I would probably stop showing up.  I personally would rather people show up to matches, even if they are not training as hard anymore, or just don't have the same level of participation as the top contenders.

This reminds me of a match a few years back where all the top winners got gun choices off a prize table..
And this was known before the match...
as they walked past the “table” there was someone there with a pile of cash buying every single gun they “won”.

Those top winners didn’t want or need those guns... they wanted some cash...

The top shooters have little need for any of the good prizes on an order of finish prize table. They can either get it from their sponsor, buy it or they already have it.

So I agree with the giving the
Prizes out randomly.. that is the best chance of putting the item in the hands of “user” which is what marketing is for..

Honest question—.
If you are trying to grow your market share in a business which if the following would you do?
1. Give merchandise to someone who will blog about it, or advertise its usefulness.
2. Give it to someone who will Take it and sell it and not further your marketing goals?
3. Not provide to matches.
4. Give it out and hope the match helps you.

Other options to add to this?

[konkapot]

I think my default would be #3 unless I can draw a pretty clear line from supporting a match to a measurable sales increase. I would  have to be selling a REALLY niche, competition specific widget to get pushed to do 2 or 4. 

[YVK]

Charlie, this is an interesting question but without a definitive answer. You're asking for a perception of value, and everyone has their own system of values.

I am typing this from a hotel where I am staying for the TPC class, a certificate for which I won randomly at the Magnus Cup. A gun on my bed stand is  a Glock 19 that I won a certificate for at the the area match. So here I am, at least $1300 beneficiary of random prizes system, and it doesn't matter to me. In other words, it doesn't impact me emotionally, promotionally, or financially.  This is solely based on my value system, where the most valuable thing to me is my time, where physical mementos don't hold a candle to memories and experiences, and where my financial state of affairs makes the prize system unneeded. Others may have different value sets, and I doubt there will be a clear winner of an opinion here.

[EEH]

21 minutes ago, YVK said:

Charlie, this is an interesting question but without a definitive answer. You're asking for a perception of value, and everyone has their own system of values.

I am typing this from a hotel where I am staying for the TPC class, a certificate for which I won randomly at the Magnus Cup. A gun on my bed stand is  a Glock 19 that I won a certificate for at the the area match. So here I am, at least $1300 beneficiary of random prizes system, and it doesn't matter to me. In other words, it doesn't impact me emotionally, promotionally, or financially.  This is solely based on my value system, where the most valuable thing to me is my time, where physical mementos don't hold a candle to memories and experiences, and where my financial state of affairs makes the prize system unneeded. Others may have different value sets, and I doubt there will be a clear winner of an opinion here.

Well said.

[Intheshaw1]

After covering the basics of having good, well run stages, I value my time the most. Don't waste my time by not starting promptly, having significant delays during the day, or run way past when it's supposed to be done. I want to get in, shoot and have fun, and get out. 

 

As for the prize table, I agree that they should be a random draw. Of course honor top places with trophies and some cash if you can afford it, but have the prize table for every one else. I don't got to matches because of the prize tables but it's sure nice to get something.

 

I golf as well in a lot of outings and charity fundraisers and I see this to be very similar. Sure, the top golfers are honored with a trophy and usually some gift cards but the prizes are given out randomly.

 

Side question, I'm assuming for the most part the people winning are already sponsored, do they even care about the prizes other than the resale value?

[shred]

As a sponsor, being asked for cash sucks.  That comes straight off the bottom line and nobody even gets a thing to say "thanks for this cool thing I won..."

 

I've posted before that sponsors can expect between zero and maybe three 'thank you for sponsoring' emails after sponsoring a major match and it's very difficult to see any blip in revenue from it (I've talked with several regular sponsors about this, so it's not just my experience here).

 

I donate stuff to a prize table to get it in the hands of someone that wants it.   Random "here's your prize bag" is the worst.  Random 'pick one from the table' and order of finish tables are both ok for L2s (just specify that in advance how it's going down so people know).

 

That rant over..

 

for L2's and the like one thing I haven't seen posted yet is making the stages look decent goes a long way to making a match feel 'bigger'.  Clean up the trash and old junk in the berms and give somebody a bucket of paint and spraygun to at least make the walls a consistent color (don't give the stage ROs a couple cans of spray paint and tell them to decorate the stage.  That rarely works out).

 

FWIW, IPSC has a 'clean' initiative for their matches-- just walls, props and targets on the bays and away from the "High School Musical" decorations.  A search on pics and video of the EHC 2019 European Championships will give a pretty good idea how that looks. 

 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, shred said:

I've posted before that sponsors can expect between zero and maybe three 'thank you for sponsoring'

 

I believe that, but that doesn't capture everything.  I know a bunch of shooters using a certain brand of coated bullets as a thank you for sponsoring matches and/or stages.  Another bunch uses a different brand for the same reason.  I switched to using Tandemkross parts for my Buckmark pistol and my 10/22 because they make good parts, number 1, and they sponsor matches and stages where I shoot Steel Challenge.  The other two firms that make equally good parts don't  Actually one doesn't at all.  The other occasionally sponsors something.  Years ago I enjoyed watching Masterpiece Theater.  It was sponsored by Mobil, so I used their gas.  One because it was good, and two because they sponsored a show I liked.   So while you may not see an immediate blip in sales, you may well gain more down stream.  I'm sure the shooters who switched bullets didn't run right out and buy some.  They did when they needed more.  Geez, if I decided to switch 9mm bullets today, I'd still have 2500 to run through before I bought the new brand.  So I do believe you get value from your sponsorship, even if it doesn't come via email.

[Malarky112]

Lots of info here but I agree with the “look” of a match. I’ve been to a few big expensive matches and they looked the same as an area match with a few more stages. Have nice props, paint stuff etc. 

 

I enjoy the tshirt/sweatshirt offered at lots of big matches. I shot one last year that asked what size shirt and then gave hats...another that asked what size shirt and never gave one. To me that’s really annoying...if you offer it please be sure to follow thru. 
 

Random prize draw is the way to go I think.  

Myself I don’t care for lunch at big matches. I bring my own food and hate stopping for lunch. 

[shred]

On 11/17/2019 at 1:48 PM, zzt said:

 

I believe that, but that doesn't capture everything.  I know a bunch of shooters using a certain brand of coated bullets as a thank you for sponsoring matches and/or stages.  Another bunch uses a different brand for the same reason.  I switched to using Tandemkross parts for my Buckmark pistol and my 10/22 because they make good parts, number 1, and they sponsor matches and stages where I shoot Steel Challenge.  The other two firms that make equally good parts don't  Actually one doesn't at all.  The other occasionally sponsors something.  Years ago I enjoyed watching Masterpiece Theater.  It was sponsored by Mobil, so I used their gas.  One because it was good, and two because they sponsored a show I liked.   So while you may not see an immediate blip in sales, you may well gain more down stream.  I'm sure the shooters who switched bullets didn't run right out and buy some.  They did when they needed more.  Geez, if I decided to switch 9mm bullets today, I'd still have 2500 to run through before I bought the new brand.  So I do believe you get value from your sponsorship, even if it doesn't come via email.

 

Sadly there aren't enough people like that.  One midrange sponsor I know did a test... for a year or two they didn't sponsor anything.  The next year they did.  No noticeable effect... 

 

I'm still in favor of sponsoring with stuff because I remember 20 years ago when I was a young pup and looking at the cool swag on the prize table and thinking "someday I want to win that".    Getting product (especially new things) out where people can see it is a win, but we don't expect much tangible return for it besides a happy shooter or two unless the match is handing out slots. 

 

That's why cash sponsorship and cash prizes in this sport are difficult and why skipping a prize table isn't going to lower match fees unless the match is buying prizes with entry fees (which does happen sometimes).   If we had companies with ad budgets like Budweiser around, sure they can drop $100K out of the ad budget, no problem, but the average mom-n-pop shooter-shop?  Not so much.

 

[IronicTwitch]

Really got me thinking about the detailed planning that goes into bigger matches. Financials and schedules. Thanks to the MDs that do this and make it look easy.

 

For $150 I'd hope Staff should have a no expense match (hotels, per diem, shirts).  Happy ROs = good match atmosphere

 

As a competitor, I'm looking for a 10-14 stage match. Full or half day format. 10-12 person squads.  Staff oversight to reset movers and stage designs to minimize reshoots. 

 

Keeping squads flowing without backups is key. Expectations for time on the range influence how we hydrate and fuel and focus. I like water and shade provided on each stage.

 

Match sponsors are the only level I remember, and usually those are bullet providers. Makes sense since that's the one common consumable. Don't bother trying to beat the bushes for more sponsors.

 

I really like raffles for guns or reloading presses or components.  Added anticipation of the chance of winning even after the match is done.

 

Prize table should be trophy only. I saw a comment about cash prize for division winners to draw in top tier competitors. Maybe that's worth something.

 

Lunch provided. I saw a comment about shooting through lunch and like the idea but not sure how that'd play in reality for most.

 

Last, suggest more transparency on the match balance sheet and how many shooters are needed to break even. Not sure how far in advance that balance sheet starts. Since most clubs are run as non-profits, I think it would give ownership back to competitors that these matches are really for us.

[CHA-LEE]

I realize that getting everyone to settle on the same major match features that are most important to them is impossible. I do like hearing all of the diverse opinions from many different competitors. This feedback will help me host the best match I can. 

[mchapman]

CHA-LEE, one thing that I haven't seen mentioned is to have a nice "match" hotel or two that will give shooters a break on lodging. A couple of other things you could look at is the snack carts with fresh fruit, nuts crackers and such seem to go over really well. As far as water at every stage is a good idea, but I would go with the small bottles, we have so much waste with the bigger, normal size ones, they get one or two swallows and put it down and walk off or forget which was theirs. Igloo water coolers would be less expensive but a lot of people won't use them and prefer individual bottles. I like the random draw for prize tables if you have one. Order of finish of main divisions get trophies or awards, and as a side note to those, I think that a lot of people who usually win these would like the award or trophy to be something that is actually usable and not just another something for the mantle or the box in the closet.

[Sarge]

Hotel rates are hit or miss. If NOTHING else is going on you can get good rates. BUT if there are other major events the same weekend you are lucky to find enough room for staff. And at a premium price...

[MikeBurgess]

11 hours ago, IronicTwitch said:

 

 

Last, suggest more transparency on the match balance sheet and how many shooters are needed to break even. Not sure how far in advance that balance sheet starts. Since most clubs are run as non-profits, I think it would give ownership back to competitors that these matches are really for us.

I think this is not a bad idea, some people get the idea that with so much money coming in somebody must be profiting from it, but my experience with several L2 matches has been that not running out of money is the real challenge. 

[CHA-LEE]

I can understand how competitors may want a match hotel discount wrangled for them but that also assumes that there is a specific hotel near the range that is both good quality and reasonably priced. For example, the range I will be hosting this Level 2 match at is 30+ miles from any hotel in all four directions (N, S, E, W). Given this particular range location, it doesn't make any sense for me to try and broker a discount at any particular hotel because none of them are "close" to the range and there is a wide range of hotels available 30+ miles from the range.

 

I attend 10+ major matches each year. It has been a very rare scenario where the "Match Hotel Discount" was cheaper than simply booking a room online via popular travel booking websites like booking.com, priceline.com, or hotels.com. As stated before by others, its rare that a match director is going to be able to have enough leverage to secure a significant hotel room rate  discount directly with a hotel vs the prices available online. Especially when the justification for a discount is that people MIGHT book a room there for the match. its a different story if a huge block of rooms could be prepaid for in advance but who wants to deal with that crap given how flaky competitors can be with their travel plans. Its hard enough wrangling registration and squadding for a match much less a tangled mess of dealing with peoples hotel reservations. 

[ziebart]

+1 to Cha Lee on the match hotel. I think they were a bigger thing when we had a formal awards ceremony for level 3 and nationals in that hotel.

 

Providing a recommendation on hotels is worth while. 

[bret]

On 11/13/2019 at 6:13 PM, CHA-LEE said:

I wanted to ask for shooters opinions on what they expected to be included when attending a Level 2 USPSA Major Match that has an entry fee of $150. To me the basic requirements are a solidly run match with high quality stages, effective officiating, nice trophies, etc. Those required features to me are not even in question on being included regardless of how much the entry fee is.

 

What I am more interested in are the extra-curricular features that you feel should be included with an entry fee of $150. I have listed below what I would consider “Extra-Curricular” features that match directors usually choose to include with the entry fee or charge the customers in addition to the entry fee. The below list are just some examples, there may be others that I didn’t think of. If so please chime in.

 

Potential Extra-Curricular Match features

Match Shirts

Competitor Lunches

Drinking Water on the Bays

Prize Table (Random or Order of Finish)

Cash Payback

Onsite RV/Camping

Random Gun Drawings

Match Ammo Service

Side Matches/Stages

Etc…

 

I am not starting this thread to create a major match bashing scenario. I am fully aware that there are major matches that happen all over the US which have expensive entry fees with relatively few Extra-Curricular features included. What I hope will happen is honest feedback on what shooting customers expect to be included in a major match with an entry fee of $150. We also need to be realistic in the responses as “EVERYTHING should be included” obviously can’t happen at a certain match fee level. For example, your expectations of what is included should be different when the match fee is $100 vs $150 vs $200 vs $250+.  

I just shot a Level II match

$100

8 great stages, lunch was included and the caterer is awesome, worth going to the match for just the food, and a real nice hat.

Even had Free Beer afterwards.

It is one of the best matches of the year.

[phxbenk]

This is an interesting topic I have thought about some. Only been doing major matches for about 2yrs now and come from various other hobbies that had events/racing(mountain bike races, motorcycle racing, computer gaming, etc).

 

The thing that surprised me at major USPSA events was the prize table. Never really seen that before other than like charity fun events that you could buy into a raffle, I would think you need to buy tickets if you want into the raffle, maybe a single raffle ticket is included at check-in but that's it. Use the money from selling raffle tickets and maybe some other sponsor donations(monetary or products) to give to the top finishers. The guys who always win are going to sell them off like they do existing prize table pickups.

 

The match food is almost always sub-par, I see no reason for a lunch to be included, nor should a lunch break be needed. People would rather finish shooting earlier than stand around for 45min. Maybe include a voucher for a beer at the awards afterwards instead. Water/Gatorade in a cooler between stages is appreciated, it doesn't need to be bottles, a big jug is good enough to refill peoples bottles.

 

If the match shirt is going to be a Beefy T that fits like a tent, nobody really wants it. If it can be a nice tech-t without blowing the budget, then that is preferred but not expected. I have way too many shirts from mountain bike racing that went straight to the trash at the event.

 

Nobody wants a stressball and advertisements in a bag at checkin, fill it with match details and squad order instead.

[RadarTech]

I feel the need to comment on the topic of no lunch....

Many times the staff is out of the hotel before breakfast is opened and they need a lunch break for several reasons.

This is where they can catchup if there is a morning problem without impacting afternoon scheduling. Mostly this is for half day format matches. But in the split formats where you may shoot 2 half day segments instead of a full day this is still needed.

Lunch is also where staff can reset, repair, replace broken stuff without impacting shooters and making them wait and/or backing up the match. Or paint those extra targets that we didn’t think would be needed.. this list is endless... consider this an operational pause for those military minded folks...

I can see the responses will be “I don’t need a lunch break”. But the unspoken part is also “if I don’t need it no one needs it”

In this sport I have seen a number of people on insulin and special diets, how would you handle someone “taking a shot” in the tent on the side of a bay? Cause it will happen if there is no lunch break..

Additionally I’m worried about working the staff too hard, which is the worry we all should have... no staff=no match.. or the good staff goes away... and then you have more problems.

I’ve worked matches where you got 10 min to eat a lunch and no break and the next squad was all over you wanting to shoot as you rush to replace targets. I haven’t worked for one of those MDs anymore.

For shooters the no lunch part is one day.. for staff that could be 2 or 3 days...

I get it , people want to be off the range and to The hotel or home.. but when we do this at the expense of volunteer staff, it is like cutting your nose off to spite your face...

This is a tough one, you want to make shooters happy, but you can’t wear out your staff and expect to have a match the next year...

In the end, this is an MDs call with how he/she does the schedule and the ROs call whether they will come back and volunteer again.. or decide to drop out at the last minute.
as most matches are saying they are having a hard time to get staff, I would be hesitant to add “we won’t do a lunch break for this match, eat as you break between squads and stages and we hope it is ok so you can get off the range 30 min early”

Sorry— my soapbox is now yielded.

[Rosswoodford]

Minimum criteria IMO for a level II with a fee of $150

Quality stages and staff
Water on all bays
Lunch
Shirt

There are state section matches that go above and beyond what I listed that cost significantly less. The Iowa Section match is an excellent example. I believe it cost $90 and had a climate controlled porta-john trailer, plaques for top finishers, as well as lunch and water. No shirts for competitors, though.
 

[egd5]

I'm going to chime in again about lunch. You young studs who don't need a lunch can go and do pushups or whatever to keep your juices flowing if you want. But us old farts need a break. It's not going to hurt you if you do take a break, but not having a break can and will hurt many others (as RadarTech said).

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, phxbenk said:

This is an interesting topic I have thought about some. Only been doing major matches for about 2yrs now and come from various other hobbies that had events/racing(mountain bike races, motorcycle racing, computer gaming, etc).

 

The thing that surprised me at major USPSA events was the prize table. Never really seen that before other than like charity fun events that you could buy into a raffle,

? I raced mountain bikes all through the 90's and I saw a crap-ton of raffle prizes, including some pretty high dollar items. My shop also provided some of those items at local races.  Maybe things have changed recently.

[happygunner77]

Shirt should be optional.

[assaultthesalt]

14 hours ago, egd5 said:

I'm going to chime in again about lunch. You young studs who don't need a lunch can go and do pushups or whatever to keep your juices flowing if you want. But us old farts need a break. It's not going to hurt you if you do take a break, but not having a break can and will hurt many others (as RadarTech said).

Amen to that .....