Level 2 USPSA Major Match Fee vs Value

[Dutchman195]

3 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

This is a great example of pointing out the match expense differences between a local club match and a major. Unfortunately this is a hard concept for most shooters to understand. You can't apply 100% volunteer club match staff economics to a major match.

I think thats the problem with the sport from a 30,000ft level view. 

Stop expecting to rely on older retired folk to run it on a volunteer basis. Get out there and turn it into a profit. Market it, Make dope stages, invest time and them charge more. I bet at first you'll get the complaints but then when people walk away from it and go 'Damn that was dope' you'll see a positive ROI

[RadarTech]

I guess it takes that level of spending to get RO's to officiate a match.  Being relatively new to the sport I have not seriously thought about becoming an RO.

It gets even more than just the stage staff.
Often you have people coming from a long way off and they are there days before a even the stage staff get there..
At A8 this year, I arrived on Tuesday night to go thru stages for final approval. And that was 2 days before the rest of the staff. We spent over a day working on fixing smallish stage issues. So a 3 day match May mean you have some staff there for 5-6 days... I left Sunday night which meant I had 5 days on site and a 6th for travel..
There were at least 10-12 others on site BEFORE I got there...

For most level 2 matches, the team is local. But not always... for level 3 you will have a significant number arriving up to 4 days before the match to put it on the ground....

That creates a lot of hotel expense...

[nasty618]

31 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

This will help others understand what the expenses are in hosting a major match. Some people may look at the bottom line showing that the club made a 6K profit, but the reality of that is...

 

I hope the conversation was not being taken as a criticism or in any negative way...  would hate for my comments to be misunderstood.  This is a very interesting and educating topic. I sincerely hope people who put on high quality matches get to profit from them.  It's hard work.    

 

I also think the fact that you organize matches and think about all of these things to this level of detail not just as a match director but also as highly competitive shooter is a huge asset.  I would love to shoot one of your local matches.  

Edited November 14, 2019 by nasty618

[CHA-LEE]

I don't see any negative comments in this thread. So far its a really good conversation with a wide range of views, opinions, and perspectives. This is exactly what I was looking for as an MD preparing to host a Level 2 match in 2020. This will be my 6th time running this Level 2 match and I know that every time I run it there is more to learn. I am simply trying to understand the customer base better to see what they value more or less in a major match so I can fine tune my match product to suit the masses better. I also understand that no two major matches face the exact same challenges or circumstances while hosting the event.

[MadBomber]

One thing really can't stand.  Random prizes being given out at the start of the match.  I remember one match many years ago where one guy on my squad was DQ another just quit (it was too hot for him).  Both them had received great prizes even though they never finished the match.  That's just not right or even fair.  Many of us that finished, even finishing well, received nothing.

 

People shouldn't be rewarded for being DQ'd.  Prizes should and NEED to be given out based on placement and performance.  Not everyone should get a prize or a parcipitation trophy.  Winners should be rewarded.  Losers, go back home, practice and put in the effort, better luck next year.

 

Tournament level matches should be just that, TOURNAMENT level.  Not just a glorified club match.  20 years ago, level 2/3 matches cost $125-$200.  Never had too much trouble selling those out.  Raise the prices, build the match, they will come.

[Joe4d]

9 hours ago, Sarge said:

Just as a ball park figure. 10 stages with three RO’s over three days, one RM, one MD, two registration folks, two Mr fix its, and 2-3 reserve RO’s. Call it 40 people. If rooms are $100 a night(which they generally are more) and all rooms are split that’s $6k in lodging alone. Then add food and staff shirts. Very easy to get to 8 or 9k for a level II just in staff expense

I was staff there, all I ever got was a shirt, free staff match shoot, and lunch...  paid my own lodging. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Joe4d

[EEH]

 Most level 2 matches are supported by all the shooters that almost never win anything. They supply most of the money that is given away to the top few winners. Without the loosers they would not be a match at all. I shoot for fun not driven to win,all I want is to shoot a good match,meaning not a lot of Mike’s,no shoots.most of the RO are just there to shoot for free. 

Me I don’t care about a free shirt, usually the foods not very good. I’d like a chance to win a free gun through a random drawing, But the top winners in each group can’t be forgotten. 

All you people that decide to put on one of these matches be — MD — need a md.

[zzt]

14 hours ago, EEH said:

Most level 2 matches are supported by all the shooters that almost never win anything. They supply most of the money that is given away to the top few winners. Without the loosers they would not be a match at all.

 

Absolutely correct.  The greedy better shooters should remember that.  Without a lot of people like me, you get squat.

 

That is precisely why the prize table should be luck of the draw.  Everybody has an even chance.  Winners get cash from the payouts.  There is no need to try and hog everything.  I also think there should be a random prize table for the ROs.  They work really hard for basically no money, except the waived match fee.

 

I've said previously I'd prefer lower match fees and lower payouts.  High payouts are often self defeating.  I'll list one annual 6-stage match with a high match fee.  The stages are boring, but 2/3 of the fees are returned as payouts to the winning shooters.  Participation is declining year after year.  They feel like me. Why should I pay 3 or 4 times a local match fee for 6 boring speed stage, when I can shoot a challenging local 6-stage match.

 

I'm a high B shooter with a C classification, so I'm not going to win anything.  If you want me to register for an expensive shoot, you have to make it worth my while.

Edited November 15, 2019 by zzt

[broadside72]

The level 2 at my local has folks going bay to bay with snack size cups or meat proteins, cheese, fruits, bits of energy bars. Cold water and Gatorade at each bay as well. It is pretty nice. Nothing heavy, you don't get lethargic. There is a lunch break with a real lunch but you don't need to eat much then if you don't want because you have good snacks throughout the day.

As for shirts, I can wear a cotton t-shirt anywhere as long as it isn't too gaudy. But a nicer "jersey" is good for wearing to the local matches but I don't think they are good for everyday wear (often very gaudy or "loud"). But depending on the match price, I want more than a $8-10 tee with some screen printing.

 

I don't mind prize tables and raffles but definitely after the match but please don't require that you be present to win. Some of us have limited time, planes to catch, long drives to make, etc.

Staff reset is not hard if there are three staff at each stage and each bay has a paster gun. The RO/ARO need to walk to every target anyway, so the third can be following pasting. Only pasting white/black would take extra time and the movers and any steel. But most stages don't have those

[konkapot]

I've shot about 80 majors......

 

1. No circus stages; if the squad can't get a good handle on a stage in a 5 minute walk through it's too complicated. 

1a. Squads no bigger than 10-12.

 

2. Echoing what someone else said; I have no interest in a plastic bag with a bunch of flyers and a pair of foam ear plugs. 

 

3. Go easy on the props; I'm here to shoot not ride a roller coaster or push a little spaceship around while I shoot 7 yd targets. 

 

I'm neutral/indifferent to provided food. If the line's not too long I'll eat it. 

 

Going in a different direction here......….I'd pay a higher match fee to compensate the ROs. Hotel and food and travel expenses should be the minimum they get. Sarge having to pay extra to have his own room is unsat.

 

When paying ROs has come up before I've heard some say "my time is more than you'd be able to pay" and I'd reply that $75 a day for three days just bought you a keg of powder or a few thousand primers or whatever. 

 

Could you have a match without ROs? Of course you can, but I think to count on the same guys to RO again and again and again and again at majors is taking advantage of them. 

 

I'd also be in favor of paying some type of tear down/set up staff. Again.....not as much as you'd make at your regular job but way better than $0/hr. 

 

I shot club matches somewhere in Area 2 that had a paid set up and tear down crew. They got some pocket money and credit for work hours for the club. 

 

There's a time and place for "this is a volunteer sport" and there's a time and place to cut back on generic wooden plaques and give that money to the guys who run the match. 

[RadarTech]

So here is a different thought on this subject...

I have heard of some this have a belief that level 2 and higher needs to be extremely tough... think hard mudder ...


If someone says that a level 2 or level 3 match needs to be so demanding and tough that you have to be an A or above just to shoot it well, would you consider it?

Or do you think it will be attended enough to even break even financially?

Or do you this is just overboard?

Or is it a good idea ?

[223to45]

So here is a different thought on this subject...

I have heard of some this have a belief that level 2 and higher needs to be extremely tough... think hard mudder ...


If someone says that a level 2 or level 3 match needs to be so demanding and tough that you have to be an A or above just to shoot it well, would you consider

Yes I would expect it. To me that is what a higher level match should be.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[elguapo]

4 hours ago, RadarTech said:

So here is a different thought on this subject...

I have heard of some this have a belief that level 2 and higher needs to be extremely tough... think hard mudder ...


If someone says that a level 2 or level 3 match needs to be so demanding and tough that you have to be an A or above just to shoot it well, would you consider it?

Or do you think it will be attended enough to even break even financially?

Or do you this is just overboard?

Or is it a good idea ?



 

 

Tougher than your monthly club match?  For sure.

 

Tough mudder?  If I wanted one of those I would go run one of those. 

[Racinready300ex]

7 hours ago, RadarTech said:

So here is a different thought on this subject...

I have heard of some this have a belief that level 2 and higher needs to be extremely tough... think hard mudder ...


If someone says that a level 2 or level 3 match needs to be so demanding and tough that you have to be an A or above just to shoot it well, would you consider it?

Or do you think it will be attended enough to even break even financially?

Or do you this is just overboard?

Or is it a good idea ?
 

 

I don't know that I've heard anyone say that. If you make it to hard you'll just discourage shooters from coming. And stages don't have to be super difficult for the good shooters to separate themselves from the pack.

 

I do find the shooting to be more challenging typically at majors. But really that depends on your home club. One club in my area tends to not have much if any hard cover or NS's, most shots are close, start is almost always hands at sides.  If you shoot 5 stages like that, and that's all you shoot every month you might be in for a wake up call at a level 2 or higher.

 

I'm more of a fan of keeping the stages reasonable so anyone can shoot them, but give the shooter enough rope to hang themselves. Let us decide risk vs reward based on our skill set kind of thing.

[Racinready300ex]

10 hours ago, konkapot said:

 

Going in a different direction here......….I'd pay a higher match fee to compensate the ROs. Hotel and food and travel expenses should be the minimum they get. Sarge having to pay extra to have his own room is unsat.

Hotels are one of the bigger expenses for a match, figure 50 guys in 25 rooms at $100 a night. That's 10k for a 4 day match easy. Allow guys to have there own room and you double that number.

 

10 hours ago, konkapot said:

 

When paying ROs has come up before I've heard some say "my time is more than you'd be able to pay" and I'd reply that $75 a day for three days just bought you a keg of powder or a few thousand primers or whatever. 

 

Do some math here to we're talking 75 x 4 = 300. $300 x 50 staff = 15K. Assuming 430 paid shooters that's $35 added on to the match fee. I bet if a match fee went up $35 in a year people would bitch. Really a lot of the staff will be there 5 days. Area matches I've worked I was on the range Wed-Sun.

 

I'm thinking a big match 500 shooters, 50 staff means 450 paid shooters. Well, probably some sponsor slots so call it 430 paid shooters. So if everyone gets there own room, and paid $300 that's $35k that's $81 of your match fee. Now do you pay the set up crew? That could be 10 guys building stages for 5 days. That's another 4k or $9 per shooter. What about staff that works all year? Do they get a bonus? I've worked as sponsor coordinator for a level 3 for 4 years in a row. That's basically off and on work all year. The MD, has a ton on his plate all year getting ready for a big match like that.

 

You still need to pay the range to use the facility, pay uspsa, buy targets, buy materials to build walls, props, target sticks, etc. Port-a-potty's, lunch vendor, t-shirts.Staff shirts, Pasters, Chrono, maybe timers. Water, maybe gator-aid, paint for steel. Matches I've worked have a staff dinner which I think is nice. That adds another meal, plus needing a facility to host it, usually some type of small staff gift. Don't forget trophies. 

 

Not saying it can't be done, but it's good to at least try to put numbers on it so we know what we're talking about.

 

 

[konkapot]

I swagged it to be about $40/shooter.

 

It might be a horrible idea, but I would not balk at $40 additional.

 

Maybe some of that could be offset by reductions in other areas i.e. no match tshirt, maybe some savings in plaques/trophies; maybe we don't need to recognize 3rd Place Transgendered Law Enforcement L10 Champion.

 

Just thinking out loud; again it might be a horrible idea. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, konkapot said:

I swagged it to be about $40/shooter.

 

It might be a horrible idea, but I would not balk at $40 additional.

 

Maybe some of that could be offset by reductions in other areas i.e. no match tshirt, maybe some savings in plaques/trophies; maybe we don't need to recognize 3rd Place Transgendered Law Enforcement L10 Champion.

 

Just thinking out loud; again it might be a horrible idea. 

 

 

My numbers aren't much better then swaggin them really. I'm not exactly sure the number of staff, 50 might be light. The match I'm thinking of is 13ish bays plus chrono. Plus stats, MD, RM, QM's maybe a couple extra's. I'm not really opposed to the idea either, I think our Area match for example is $180, so We'd be looking at $220ish. to add 40.

 

The match I'm thinking of typically had great turn out for staff. The MD tried to take care of us. Free match fee, hotel covered(must share a room or pay half to get your own). good lunch everyday, staff dinner one night, staff awards, all staff got a prize at staff dinner (we'd make sure to pull some good stuff for staff). 2 nice jersey's, staff gift. Staff could also win prizes from the match as a competitor. I won a roll sizer at the staff dinner this year   and 500 bullets as a shooter in the match. Luckiest I've ever been by far.

[Beef15]

9 hours ago, RadarTech said:

So here is a different thought on this subject...

I have heard of some this have a belief that level 2 and higher needs to be extremely tough... think hard mudder ...


If someone says that a level 2 or level 3 match needs to be so demanding and tough that you have to be an A or above just to shoot it well, would you consider it?

Or do you think it will be attended enough to even break even financially?

Or do you this is just overboard?

Or is it a good idea ?



 

Shooting? Physical demand? Both?

I'd be game for any of the above as a barely A shooter. I'm under 40, in okay shape, and like pushing myself. 

 

I think there's a lot of shooters that would go for a "hard" match, but I don't know that there are enough that would take time and travel to fill such a match, especially before it earned a rep. 10yd runs and ports that require a mild squat bring groans if not complaints from a decent chunk of the people that fill matches. 

[motosapiens]

9 hours ago, RadarTech said:

So here is a different thought on this subject...

I have heard of some this have a belief that level 2 and higher needs to be extremely tough... think hard mudder ...
 

 

the folks that run things at my club (including myself) travel to alot of majors, so we make our stages similar to what we see at major matches. I don't think majors should be extremely tough, but perhaps some people's local matches shouldn't be so easy.

[RadarTech]

Shooting? Physical demand? Both?
I'd be game for any of the above as a barely A shooter. I'm under 40, in okay shape, and like pushing myself. 
 
I think there's a lot of shooters that would go for a "hard" match, but I don't know that there are enough that would take time and travel to fill such a match, especially before it earned a rep. 10yd runs and ports that require a mild squat bring groans if not complaints from a decent chunk of the people that fill matches. 

That is my point... having travelled the country shooting matches in multiple areas and states—
Many of the younger athletic types lack the budget to travel for this.. and the majority of the shooters Are of the opinion fun, but not so crazy...

And I think if it lasted long enough it MAY be ok... consider the hard as hell 3 gun match... it is well attended now.. but 3 gunners have money...
short term— 3-4 years... may be a struggle.

[Racinready300ex]

25 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the folks that run things at my club (including myself) travel to alot of majors, so we make our stages similar to what we see at major matches. I don't think majors should be extremely tough, but perhaps some people's local matches shouldn't be so easy.

 

^This

 

In fact I know IDPA shooters who think USPSA seems to easy. They've only shot some USPSA locals, that are vary hosey with really high HF's.  In IDPA they are used to seeing more difficult shots, and a Charlie adds a second to your time. So in their eyes USPSA isn't a shooting challenge, it's run fast and squirt bullets at stuff. I get where they are coming from based on the limited information they have. But, it's hard to convince them to travel and spend $150 on a entry fee when they assume it'll be the same as the club matches they've shot.

 

[Dutchman195]

15 hours ago, zzt said:

 

That is precisely why the prize table should be luck of the draw.  Everybody has an even chance.  Winners get cash from the payouts.  There is no need to try and hog everything.  I also think there should be a random prize table for the ROs.  They work really hard for basically no money, except the waived match fee.

 

I've said previously I'd prefer lower match fees and lower payouts.  High payouts are often self defeating.  I'll list one annual 6-stage match with a high match fee.  The stages are boring, but 2/3 of the fees are returned as payouts to the winning shooters.  Participation is declining year after year.  They feel like me. Why should I pay 3 or 4 times a local match fee for 6 boring speed stage, when I can shoot a challenging local 6-stage match.

 

I'm a high B shooter with a C classification, so I'm not going to win anything.  If you want me to register for an expensive shoot, you have to make it worth my while.

But then the people that put in the work to shoot at a M or GM level arent rewarded with anything? You have to be very intrinsically motivated to spend the Time and money on this sport to shoot at that level and not get anything in return. 

That is exactly why I dont like IDPA, You see DMs putting in work and then getting nothing. I think the Classes should be awarded, 1st B has a prize that could be similar to 1st M. Many years ago at nationals they had the prize room broken up by division, then they called the 1st GM and then the 1st M and so on down the list, then 2nd GM and 2nd M. I think that was a fair way to do it. the GM got his pick of the loot then it filtered down, rewarding those that put in the time to earn their spot on the podium. Maybe thats not even the best way to do it, but it's a opener to the discussion of how we can make this better. 

 

I would argue that if your going to give out random draw prize table, then dont even give one out at all. OR! at least make it very clear how the match will operate before you sign up. 

 

 

To counter your middle paragraph, thats capitalism, You provide a crappy lame match that is 6 speed shoots and expensive, the market will self adjust and then people will just stop going. Going back to my point; are the people that are running the match 'in the know' that you and others feel this way? Or are they of the old school mindset that 'well we've always done it this way.' Teaching people that they need to be able to adjust to the market shift is critical. I think people are looking at it all wrong, that they HAVE to volunteer. You are putting on a event to make money for the club, you need to treat it as such. 

I would bet that the big clubs that host ATA registered shoots and USPSA Lvl 2+ will look at the financials and go, "hey X event makes us more money, lets do more of those." and then the Y event will get starved out. 

[Dutchman195]

43 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the folks that run things at my club (including myself) travel to alot of majors, so we make our stages similar to what we see at major matches. I don't think majors should be extremely tough, but perhaps some people's local matches shouldn't be so easy.

I think thats great, lots of people I see running clubs dont travel to majors, so they dont know whats going on nationally, just that the same bay gets the same type of stage every month and it gets boring. 

 

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, Dutchman195 said:

But then the people that put in the work to shoot at a M or GM level arent rewarded with anything? You have to be very intrinsically motivated to spend the Time and money on this sport to shoot at that level and not get anything in return. 

 

Hmm. My experience racing bicycles is that getting motivated by winning prizes (rather than by the quality of the event and the competition, and the sheer love of getting better) is the best way to suck the fun out of a sport, so I've resisted even thinking about it in shooting. As a competitive M, I personally am motivated much more by winning and by improving than by a prize-table reward. For the money I spend on travel to a match, I could actually buy a much nicer prize for myself (and sometimes I do).

 

Even tho order of finish prizes are more beneficial to me personally, I prefer random draw because they are fun for everyone. I don't see any reason that shooters who have no chance of winning should be subsidizing my prizes.

[elguapo]

32 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

getting motivated by winning prizes (rather than by the quality of the event and the competition, and the sheer love of getting better) is the best way to suck the fun out of a sport, so I've resisted even thinking about it in shooting.  For the money I spend on travel to a match, I could actually buy a much nicer prize for myself (and sometimes I do).

 

Truth