Level 2 USPSA Major Match Fee vs Value

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Balakay said:

I like shirts but not cotton tshirts. If the shirt is a tech wear type shirt, I will wear it again. CottonTs go in the rag pile. Realizing that the cost of the quality shirts is likely prohibitive, I would rather get nothing and pay less of a match fee

 

that's funny because my wife and I are EXACTLY the opposite. We got nice techwear shirts at a2 and I had to rescue hers from the trash and give it to a friend's wife. There is literally nowhere we can wear a techwear shooting shirt (I don't wear professional shooting blouses, and she only wears her sponsor's blouse). But we both love the soft t-shirts that alot of matches out west have been doing, so we can wear them to run, to the gym, etc.... 

 

Just goes to show you that you can't please everyone, unless you do really good, fair stages with excellent RO's and good match flow, and then no one will care about the small stuff....

[CHA-LEE]

2 hours ago, RadarTech said:

A couple years ago someone put out the typical shooter layout for a stage run..
if the squad is only 7 you don’t always have people to reset... 
IE— 1 shooting, 1 on deck, 1 recovering from shooting. 1 studying and still thinking of what to do.. that’s 4.. then invariably at a major there is the broken gun, working on gun or other issue going on as the person is at the safe area... then someone going to the restroom... so that leaves 1 or 2 out of 7... 

if you have older shooters, there might be 1 or 2 that can’t reset the whole match. Or more... 

So unless you have a squad of 10 plus, it is common to just have slow reset...now this was typical in the my geo area as we have/had a lot of half day format 7-8 shooter squads... see below.. 

now for the regional spin...And from the comments I see above I know several are from my geo area...

SC from at least 2010 on was all about staff does the entire reset period(I think there were a year or 2 break in there). no ifs ands or buts... Georgia did it too from my memory from 2012 except for last year I think.  
NC did that in 16,17 I know of.. 18 I can’t speak for.
The GA and NC sectionals on the staff side for reset was all but required due to the squad size for the half day format so they had large staffs. I remember working stages in Ga in 15 and 16 where we had 5 and sometimes 6 on a stage.  In NC in 16 and 17 we had 3-5 on most stages.  
Most of these matches happened at “warm” parts of the year so folks loved no reset.. some still helped.. 

I like the half day format because you are never more than 26-28 min from beep to beep as a competitor... this goes back to not even having time to go stir crazy... the only major match I shot this year that I didn’t work was a half day format.. there were a couple times that it was so quick I barely got mags cleaned and reloaded before we were moving to the next stage..it was so fast that before I even knew it we were done and heading home! 

anyway YMMV.. 

 

I am not sure how a match can have 4+ staff on each stage without an exorbitant entry fee. It couldn’t happen at a $150 entry fee for sure. 

[Joe4d]

Area 8 and VA/MD sectionals.. saw some really good 7 stage matches every month for $25,,,  didnt see the point of ANY of the fluff that jacked prices up over $100. Only real difference in the Level 2 and 3, was stage RO's chrono, and a couple more stages. 
Really dont care about any of the grab bag, prizes, and assorted fluff. Can do basic trophy's and leave it at that. Lower the entry fees.
I prefer half day formats.. But dont think its hard to give folks a choice..
Let people choose their squads, so one day folks can pic a AM and PM squad.

[Balakay]

7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

that's funny because my wife and I are EXACTLY the opposite. We got nice techwear shirts at a2 and I had to rescue hers from the trash and give it to a friend's wife. There is literally nowhere we can wear a techwear shooting shirt (I don't wear professional shooting blouses, and she only wears her sponsor's blouse). But we both love the soft t-shirts that alot of matches out west have been doing, so we can wear them to run, to the gym, etc.... 

 

Just goes to show you that you can't please everyone, unless you do really good, fair stages with excellent RO's and good match flow, and then no one will care about the small stuff....

Definitely can't please everyone.  The humidity of Florida vs. Idaho is probably the reason for our difference of opinion. Like you said, run a quality match at a fair price. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

Area 8 and VA/MD sectionals.. saw some really good 7 stage matches every month for $25,,,  didnt see the point of ANY of the fluff that jacked prices up over $100. Only real difference in the Level 2 and 3, was stage RO's chrono, and a couple more stages. 
Really dont care about any of the grab bag, prizes, and assorted fluff. Can do basic trophy's and leave it at that. Lower the entry fees.
I prefer half day formats.. But dont think its hard to give folks a choice..
Let people choose their squads, so one day folks can pic a AM and PM squad.

Just as a ball park figure. 10 stages with three RO’s over three days, one RM, one MD, two registration folks, two Mr fix its, and 2-3 reserve RO’s. Call it 40 people. If rooms are $100 a night(which they generally are more) and all rooms are split that’s $6k in lodging alone. Then add food and staff shirts. Very easy to get to 8 or 9k for a level II just in staff expense

[GJM]

Interesting topic. My wife and I got to shoot a number of larger matches this year, and were just discussing differences in matches. Here is what matters to us.

 

1) being efficient with our time. Much prefer a two day match format to three days. When you consider travel, looking at stages, and the match, three days equals a week of your time. Wish only Nationals was three days.

 

2) quality and attitude of the RO staff. At Area 2 a few days ago, the RO staff was universally friendly and professional. When there was an issue like calibration or another call, that happened efficiently. That has not been the case at some other matches we have shot over the past six months. Not sure if the Range Officers were worn out from long matches, not treated well, or there was another reason. If I were the match director, I would orient RO staff so they understand that they set the tone for the match and that there is an expectation of professionalism and friendliness in their interactions with competitors. 
 

I don’t want to eat provided food or wear most shirts. Cold water on stages is greatly appreciated. Warm water laying in the dirt, that the RO’s dog peed on, not nearly so attractive. 

[elguapo]

10 hours ago, L3324temp said:

Any time I spent more than $20 to shoot a match I felt ripped off. Many of my local non USPSA matches are $10 so even when I pay $20 for a sanctioned match I feel a little taken advantage of.


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Seriously?

 

Considering what you get for $20, I just don't see how your outrage can be taken seriously.

 

Go price any registered sporting clays match or a PRS long range rifle match...…………….

 

Anyway, here's my must-have list

• Interesting problems to solve in each stage
• No circus/carnival prop targets
• Fair officiating
• Shade in each bay
• Plenty of cold water
• A well planned match with no built-in bottlenecks.  I know problems happen despite the best planning, so don't make it worse by having an obvious choke point designed into your flow.
• Two days max to shoot the match

 

Things I'd rather my money didn't go towards

• Prizes
• Shirts/coffee cups/swag
• Parties/social events/extraneous non-shooting stuff

Edited November 14, 2019 by elguapo

[Sarge]

25 minutes ago, GJM said:

Interesting topic. My wife and I got to shoot a number of larger matches this year, and were just discussing differences in matches. Here is what matters to us.

 

1) being efficient with our time. Much prefer a two day match format to three days. When you consider travel, looking at stages, and the match, three days equals a week of your time. Wish only Nationals was three days.

 

2) quality and attitude of the RO staff. At Area 2 a few days ago, the RO staff was universally friendly and professional. When there was an issue like calibration or another call, that happened efficiently. That has not been the case at some other matches we have shot over the past six months. Not sure if the Range Officers were worn out from long matches, not treated well, or there was another reason. If I were the match director, I would orient RO staff so they understand that they set the tone for the match and that there is an expectation of professionalism and friendliness in their interactions with competitors. 
 

I don’t want to eat provided food or wear most shirts. Cold water on stages is greatly appreciated. Warm water laying in the dirt, that the RO’s dog peed on, not nearly so attractive. 

This is why I stress in shooters meetings to give me honest feedback. Tell me when an RO doesn’t meet your expectations, when a stage sucks, when a dog peed on a warm bottle of water, etc. I have been known to pull RO’s out of a match and not invite them back.

[B_RAD]

11 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

I don’t want to discredit anyone’s opinions, but the desire for staff reset seems odd to me. If the whole squad pitches in on reset it goes much faster than waiting for a couple staff to do it all. That and I would go stir crazy with nothing to do but wait for my turn to shoot. I don’t know about you guys but it usually takes me 1 shooter after my run to get my gear reset and back to helping with reset. Not to mention walking around all day during reset helping me get some more exercise. 

Guess it depends on match, location, range cover and temp. On hot days I want to stay out of the sun as much as possible. That’s really my reason for wanting staff reset. 
 

 

[SWprotected]

9 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

I am not sure how a match can have 4+ staff on each stage without an exorbitant entry fee. It couldn’t happen at a $150 entry fee for sure. 

Actually not true, I have shot a few matches where the staff does the resetting in NC and SC. I don't think the entry fee was over $150 and surprisingly it goes very well. I don't mind resetting but it is nice when you don't have to, it allows you to take your time getting your mags cleaned and reloaded for the next stage, and there is some time to BS with the folks on your squad. 

I do understand this is going to vary depending on location due to the number of people available to work the match.

Edited November 14, 2019 by SWprotected

[mwc]

The only reason I would go to a level 2 or 3 match is for the competition.

What I want more than anything else is good stages, a well run match, and competitive equity. If $150 was only enough to achieve that then I would be fine with no prize tables, random drawings, match shirts or having lunch provided. Heck, I would even pay more if it would help.

When I go to a local match and pay $20 and the results are affected because of a RO call or a stage wasn't reset the same for everyone, it doesn't bother me as nearly as much as it does when I invest close to a $1000 for the same experience.




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[nasty618]

Going to pile up and add my...

 

...must haves:

 

Challenging (non memory) stages with the proper ratio of short/medium/long stages

Knowledgeable and experienced staff 

Smoothly ran event, with no 20-30 minute back ups

Water on stages

Safe area at each stage

Portajohns within a bay or two walk

12 person squads

More frequent target changes

5 minute walk throughs 

 

RV parking area would be a nice touch as well, but not a must.
 
..."dont want or care about"s:

 

Any food at all 
Any shirts or gift bags

 

Dont really care about award ceremonies, but i definitely see how it can be a nice social event for those who like to attend them.
 

P.S. While i don't mind and actually like resetting, I would also like to experience a staff reset match.  It seems to be a norm for L2+ matches across the pond. Taking it a bit further, for example, working a higher level match in Yekaterinburg is so highly desired, that ROs apply and get selected - you dont just volunteer and automatically get the job. This would also potentially address the relatively small but real issue of the reshoots for prematurely pasted targets, improperly reset props and even poor ROing.

 

P.P.S. Personally, i feel that with some planning and little or no extra cost, even local matches should be able to meet most of the must haves listed above.  And I will gladly pay 30 bucks for a local match to help that happen.  20 bucks for a local match is really nothing... so i dont get the "i feel taken advantage of if i pay more than 10 bucks" mentality.  When i shoot a local match and it's 10 or 15 bucks but they use masking tape instead of pasters, i want to say "hey - here is an extra $10, just buy a couple of rolls for the next match."

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by nasty618

[zzt]

I went to Level II and III matches entirely self sufficient.  I bring my own food, water with electrolytes, snacks, rain gear and either a 68" or 72" cart mounted umbrella.  I no longer go to USPSA Level II and III matches, because 13 stages and 12-14 man squads takes waaaay to long to shoot.  I still go the SCSA Level II and up matches, with caveats.

 

Al the good stages, good staff, etc. offered above goes without saying.

 

If there is a prize table, it should be random with each shooter drawing after registration and before the match starts.

If lunch is provided it must be good AND hot.  So far it never has been.

 

If you don't offer a half-day format, I'm not going.  That stands for SCSA as well.  Starting an eight stage match at 8:30 with 15 gun squads and not finishing until 4PM is ridiculous.

 

Long, complicated stages that are slow to reset should be avoided.  It stacks up squads.  I have literally waited 40 minutes for the previous squad to finish.  The squad behind us arrived before the squad in front of us finished shooting.

 

Four day events turn me off, plus it really jacks the price up.

 

Even though I have won money (Lewis, not merit), I'd rather see lower match fees than payouts.

 

I don't mind cotton t-shirts (especially with pockets).  I have stacks of them.

[Bagellord]

One thing that's very important to me is having enough RO's on each stage. I have shot a few majors where they were very short staffed and it really sucks the fun out of things. At a major match, competitors should NEVER be handling the tablet or writing in scores.

[CHA-LEE]

3 hours ago, Sarge said:

Just as a ball park figure. 10 stages with three RO’s over three days, one RM, one MD, two registration folks, two Mr fix its, and 2-3 reserve RO’s. Call it 40 people. If rooms are $100 a night(which they generally are more) and all rooms are split that’s $6k in lodging alone. Then add food and staff shirts. Very easy to get to 8 or 9k for a level II just in staff expense

 

This is a great example of pointing out the match expense differences between a local club match and a major. Unfortunately this is a hard concept for most shooters to understand. You can't apply 100% volunteer club match staff economics to a major match.

[nasty618]

Lets say 10K for Match Staff expenses. How many shooters are expected at this L2 match?  I spot checked a bunch of L2 matches from this year, 135 on the low and 350 on the high end. Lets go with the lower number of 150 shooters.  With a $150 entry fee that's 22.5K.   If it's a for profit match, what's the margin you have to clear?

[broadside72]

23 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Lets say 10K for Match Staff expenses. How many shooters are expected at this L2 match?  I spot checked a bunch of L2 matches from this year, 135 on the low and 350 on the high end. Lets go with the lower number of 150 shooters.  With a $150 entry fee that's 22.5K.   If it's a for profit match, what's the margin you have to clear?

 

Range fees per head and possibly per bay

USPSA fees per head

Range improvements and facility fees (renting picnic area or reserving parking)

Targets, paint, tape/pasters, target sticks

Water for 2-3x number of shooters+staff
Staff meals, lodging, and travel

Loss of revenue due to staff discounts (might be 150 shooters but if 30 are staff shooting for free...)

Insurance

Marketing

Any range/club/match swag

[davsco]

27 minutes ago, nasty618 said:

Lets say 10K for Match Staff expenses. How many shooters are expected at this L2 match?  I spot checked a bunch of L2 matches from this year, 135 on the low and 350 on the high end. Lets go with the lower number of 150 shooters.  With a $150 entry fee that's 22.5K.   If it's a for profit match, what's the margin you have to clear?

just remember that if the staff is included in # of shooters, you need to back out their match fees.  maybe you already did that.  as a finance guy, i am interested in match economics.

[nasty618]

Cool, yeah. all of that.  

 

So... what are the numbers that event organizers need to hit in order to make all the "must haves" and some of the "nice to haves" happen and be profitable?  Just to be clear - i am all for someone making a profit when they do all that work.

 

[robchavous]

For anyone curious here's the financials for the last GA state match held at my home club in 2016.  We ran half day with staff reset.  The match fee was $135.

Profit and Loss Statement.pdf

[nasty618]

4 minutes ago, robchavous said:

For anyone curious here's the financials for the last GA state match held at my home club in 2016.  We ran half day with staff reset.  The match fee was $135.

 

THANK YOU! That was very educating and the spirit transparency is appreciated.

[MikeyScuba]

I guess it takes that level of spending to get RO's to officiate a match.  Being relatively new to the sport I have not seriously thought about becoming an RO.

[Sarge]

32 minutes ago, MikeyScuba said:

I guess it takes that level of spending to get RO's to officiate a match.  Being relatively new to the sport I have not seriously thought about becoming an RO.

Volunteering can get expensive. When I CRO a major the least I will settle for is waived match fees and free lodging. Even then I always want my own room so I pay half of lodging

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, robchavous said:

For anyone curious here's the financials for the last GA state match held at my home club in 2016.  We ran half day with staff reset.  The match fee was $135.

Profit and Loss Statement.pdf 87 kB · 15 downloads

 

Thanks for the numbers. This will help others understand what the expenses are in hosting a major match. Some people may look at the bottom line showing that the club made a 6K profit, but the reality of that is that profit was only made by a narrow margin by the last 45 shooters to sign up for the match. Looking at the attendance numbers of this match on Practiscore it looks like there were 313 total competitors. Yes some of these are probably staff or sponsored slots that didn't pay for their slot. But the stark reality is that if this match had 46 less paying competitors it would have been a loss. 60 less competitors and it would have been a 2K loss.

[Dutchman195]

I think for the 100-150 L2 match I would expect the following

 

9-12 stages, call two of them speed shoots. Not everything needs to be 32 rounds

Regular T shirt

1 day format

Water bottles on Bays

Trophy and Prize table...Or Cash (in order of performance)

I've never done a shoot off so I think thats kinda cool

Tablet scoring with individual paper copy, or PS emailed copy of what I approved on the tablet.

50/50 raffle?

 

Lots of communication, if there is a side match I'd like to know about it, vendors, Gathering at local restaurant after etc...

 

Dislikes, 
Lunch, or if the ROs need a break, schedule a open stage for them. 

Not replacing targets at lunch

Forced 2 day format

Backups

Shooters bags that have 40lbs of flyers for things I'll never even look at.

Forward Falling Steel.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Dutchman195
Dislike Popper F&$king