ND During Unload & Show Clear Command - DQ?

[anonymouscuban]

Hey all. Not sure if this belongs here so admins, apologies in advance. 

 

I shot a match this past Saturday. My squads 1st stage was a hoser so we had to wait for the other squad shooting our next stage. Two guys on that squad had an ND. The 1st guy, it happened while making ready. He was DQ'd. Felt terrible for the guy because it was his first stage of the match. So up comes the next shooter. He shoots the stage and as he is unloading and clearing his gun, BOOM. ND down range. The RO and shooter had a couple of words. He holstered his gun and continued. No DQ. 

 

Being newer to the sport, I wanted to know if he should have been DQ'd, technically?

 

I didn't want to ask. Seemed inappropriate at the time. No one really talked about it but it was apparent by folks reactions that it was an ND and most expected him to get the DQ. 

 

Really just want to know for my own knowledge. This was only my 4th ND I've witnessed during a match and all the others were during the course of fire or during make ready. This one was different where I guess you could argue that the shooter wasn't finished shooting. 

 

Thanks. 

 

 

[ChuckS]

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a firearm. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

[Matt1]

Sounds like your typical BOC cluster f*#k


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[Brooke]

Well this has been a confused subject for a while. 8.3.6 (unload and show clear) says "If you are finished Unload and Show Clear". The competitor is not barred from firing a shot that is in the general direction of a target and does not violate some other rule (over berm, closer the 10 ft etc). It says "If Finished" and the RO cannot make a case of what the competitor is thinking if he fires safely at at target.

 

8.3.7 which says "If Clear Hammer Down Holster" (and other variations for divisions) goes on to state "after insurance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing".

 

So firing a shot that does not violate a separate rule during "If Finished ULSC" is not a DQ if that shot adheres to other safety rules. Even when the competitor is clearly unloading the RO should not make an effort to determine what was in the competitors mind.. The RO can not do that.

 

After 8.3.7 is issued the DQ is applicable and required.

 

No rule requires a competitor to aim. So that is not an issue.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Brooke

[Blackstone45]

But 10.4.3 DQs you for a discharge while loading, reloading or unloading. So I don't think you could in good faith argue that you were still engaging targets if you loosed a shot after "if finished ULSC" when you were clearly unloading the gun.

[outerlimits]

This has been arb’d a few times...

[Sarge]

4 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

This has been arb’d a few times...

Indeed. The thing that gets me is that you can legally engage a target after beginning ULSC. You get the command and drop your mag then notice you missed a piece of steel. No rule prevents you from shooting it and I see it happen pretty regularly. Many times I have been running a shooter and they did this. I just start ULSC over again.

  Now if they are really unloading for sure and touch one off into a side berm then I’ll call that an AD.

[beechnutbob]

If no attempt was made to point firearm at a specific target, as to make up a shot and the shooter was attempting to unload the firearm then off the Land of DQ.  That would have been my call.

[Sarge]

Just now, beechnutbob said:

If no attempt was made to point firearm at a specific target, as to make up a shot and the shooter was attempting to unload the firearm then off the Land of DQ.  That would have been my call.

And that train of thought is what causes some confusion. In most other circumstances you can fire a shot completely by accident and it’s not a DQ. The shot has to break one of the cardinal AD rules to be called. 

[Edge40]

9 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

But 10.4.3 DQs you for a discharge while loading, reloading or unloading. So I don't think you could in good faith argue that you were still engaging targets if you loosed a shot after "if finished ULSC" when you were clearly unloading the gun.

I actually just took the CRO class last weekend and this exact thing came up.  In the end there is 2 parts to a reload.  Removing the mag and re loading a mag.  If you drop the mag and then go to engage a target that's ok.  You have stopped the unload/ reload process.

[anonymouscuban]

So after reading the replies, I've come to the conclusion that he should have been DQ'D. However, seems that there is some room where giving the guy a break doesn't seem to out of the question.

Very helpful information and its inspired me to go back and read the rule book again. I haven't since before I started shooting USPSA this year.

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[DKorn]

3 hours ago, Edge40 said:

I actually just took the CRO class last weekend and this exact thing came up.  In the end there is 2 parts to a reload.  Removing the mag and re loading a mag.  If you drop the mag and then go to engage a target that's ok.  You have stopped the unload/ reload process.

Except that it’s legal to engage a target while holding a magazine in your hand. As long as you’ve stopped unloading the gun and are engaging a target, you should be good to go (unless the ICHDH command has been given).

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Except that it’s legal to engage a target while holding a magazine in your hand. As long as you’ve stopped unloading the gun and are engaging a target, you should be good to go (unless the ICHDH command has been given).

So are you saying I can’t shoot at a target with my thumb on the mag release as the mag is released?

[Nevadazielmeister]

I believe the Range Officers were incorrect. In reading the reason for the violation, we have this rule:

 

8.4.1 When loading, reloading or unloading during a course of fire, the competitor’s fingers must be visibly outside the trigger guard and the firearm must be pointed safely downrange or in another safe direction authorized by a Range Officer (see Section 10.5).

 

And since the "Range is Clear" command had not been given, the individual was still in the course of fire. As such, both shooters should have been Disqualified.

 

And we can drill down further to further disqualify the shooters:

 

"8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” (self-loaders) or “If Clear, Cylinder Closed, Holster” (revolvers) or “If Clear, Hammer Down, Flag” (PCC) – After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing to point the firearm safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the firearm as follows:

8.3.7.1 Self-loaders/PCC – release the slide/bolt and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if any).

...

8.3.7.4  If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will issue the stop command (8.3.5), order the competitor to unload and show clear (8.3.6), and complete the range commands in 8.3.7 and 8.3.8. The competitor will then be disqualified under 10.4.3."

 

Please prove me wrong.  

[Edge40]

If the if clear hammer down holster command was given its no good.  If the mag was falling out of the gun with your finger on the mag release I would probably say that you were in the process of unloading and call it.  I didn't say anything about holding it in your hand. That would be ok by me if you were actually indexing a target.  Again AD's aren't the easiest thing to call.

[broadside72]

Second shooter situation totally depends on where the RO was in terms of the commands given, and if those commands were spoken completely. Just starting to spit out If clear and it goes bang that can be arb'd. If the entire command was spoken then it's a DQ.

I'd prefer a rule edit to make the DQ applicable at the start of issuance of the ICHDH command rather than "after issuance" wording used now.

[Nevadazielmeister]

On 10/17/2019 at 8:37 PM, anonymouscuban said:

So up comes the next shooter. He shoots the stage and as he is unloading and clearing his gun, BOOM. ND down range.

 

4 hours ago, broadside72 said:

Second shooter situation totally depends on where the RO was in terms of the commands given, and if those commands were spoken completely. Just starting to spit out If clear and it goes bang that can be arb'd. If the entire command was spoken then it's a DQ.

I'd prefer a rule edit to make the DQ applicable at the start of issuance of the ICHDH command rather than "after issuance" wording used now.

 

I disagree with your logic broadside72. I was basing the interpretation of the rule on the comments by the OP. As the shooter was "unloading and clearing", the gun went off. That means that his finger was in the trigger guard in violation of rule 8.4.1 referenced above. It's a clear disqualification. Whether the RO was issuing commands is irrelevant based on the comments by the OP. 

 

My wife was introduced to this rule when she drove all the way to her first major match, the Area 1 Championships. It was her second stage. She was given the Unload and Show clear command. However, she forgot to take out the magazine, something the RO did not catch. She then was advised "If clear, Hammer down" and she pulled the trigger, Boom. She was DQ'd right there. They tried and tried to figure out a way to give her a break but they could not. 

 

I guess there are differences in rule applications between matches, which is a pity. I would always want consistent application of the rules, even it meant I would get the DQ.. or worse, my wife. It was a long drive back for her. 

[broadside72]

 
I disagree with your logic broadside72. I was basing the interpretation of the rule on the comments by the OP. As the shooter was "unloading and clearing", the gun went off. That means that his finger was in the trigger guard in violation of rule 8.4.1 referenced above. It's a clear disqualification. Whether the RO was issuing commands is irrelevant based on the comments by the OP. 
 
My wife was introduced to this rule when she drove all the way to her first major match, the Area 1 Championships. It was her second stage. She was given the Unload and Show clear command. However, she forgot to take out the magazine, something the RO did not catch. She then was advised "If clear, Hammer down" and she pulled the trigger, Boom. She was DQ'd right there. They tried and tried to figure out a way to give her a break but they could not. 
 
I guess there are differences in rule applications between matches, which is a pity. I would always want consistent application of the rules, even it meant I would get the DQ.. or worse, my wife. It was a long drive back for her. 

Yes if he was actually unloading and it was an AD then he goes home. I have seen cases where they intentionally fired just as the RO started the if clear command.

[Joe4d]

IMO the ND interpretations is one of the stupidist things about the USPSA rule book and safety guidelines.

An AD SHOULD only BE an AD if it is a result of a mechanical failure.
IMO  ALL OTHERS are NEGLIGENT and should be automatic DQ at minimum, if not a time suspension as well.. I mean if lighting off a round when you didnt mean to isnt unsafe , what is ?

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:
THIS  Clearly says its not an all inclusive list,,, yet somehow all common sense has been range lawyered out of this, and despite a clearly well written rule that obviously acknowledges the fact no rule book can list every possible way to be unsafe, RM's CRO.s the BOD and everyone else that should know better says its not a DQ unless it is specifically spelled out. 
Serious sore spot with me, 
I dont need to define it, but I know it when I see it, and anyone with a lick of sense would agree. Round lights off, dude jumps out of his skin,,, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO we gotta get out a tape measure to see if its unsafe,,,  Give me a break.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Joe4d

[DKorn]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

IMO the ND interpretations is one of the stupidist things about the USPSA rule book and safety guidelines.

An AD SHOULD only BE an AD if it is a result of a mechanical failure.
IMO  ALL OTHERS are NEGLIGENT and should be automatic DQ at minimum, if not a time suspension as well.. I mean if lighting off a round when you didnt mean to isnt unsafe , what is ?

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:
THIS  Clearly says its not an all inclusive list,,, yet somehow all common sense has been range lawyered out of this, and despite a clearly well written rule that obviously acknowledges the fact no rule book can list every possible way to be unsafe, RM's CRO.s the BOD and everyone else that should know better says its not a DQ unless it is specifically spelled out. 
Serious sore spot with me, 
I dont need to define it, but I know it when I see it, and anyone with a lick of sense would agree. Round lights off, dude jumps out of his skin,,, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO we gotta get out a tape measure to see if its unsafe,,,  Give me a break.

So first of all, I agree with the normal distinction between AD and ND, but USPSA has decided to use the term AD for both, so I’ll continue to do so in this and any other rules discussions. 
 

Some things are clearly unsafe and others not. For example, there’s a spectrum between a shot that misses below the target and a shot that goes off at the shooter’s feet. One of those is clearly acceptable and safe (missing a little below the target and hitting the ground in front of it) and the other is clearly unsafe. Somewhere in the middle has to be a line between what’s allowed and what’s a DQ. You would draw the line based on intention - did the shooter mean for the gun to go off or not - while USPSA  has chosen to draw the line based on other actions and/or distance. Both are reasonable. 

[Brooke]

Y'all want to apply your personal preferences in place of the rules. During a course of fire there is no requirement to aim  You can shoot freestyle, or single handed, or single handed with a mag in the other hand (even in Production) assuming no other WSB requirement such as shoot strong hand at something. The gun can be upside down, shot from hip, whatever.

The same applies after IF YOU ARE FINISHED UNLOAD AND SHOW CLEAR. Its a question. If you are not finished you can keep shooting one shot or many shots as long as no other safety rule is violated. 

 

So someone dumps a mag and shoots a single shot in the direction of the targets.. Heck he can reload and shoot even more. Maybe he noticed that he failed to shoot at an entire array.As long as the shot conforms to other safety rules the RO cannot determine (should not) what was in the shooters mind.

 

After If clear, hammer drop holster (or the equivalent) the rules prohibit a shot and its a DQ

 

What you think does not matter. Only the rules. 

 

[motosapiens]

On 10/19/2019 at 2:43 PM, Joe4d said:

I dont need to define it, but I know it when I see it, and anyone with a lick of sense would agree. Round lights off, dude jumps out of his skin,,, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO we gotta get out a tape measure to see if its unsafe,,,  Give me a break.

 

the reason that rule exists is that there are jackass RO's who would just love to DQ someone for missing a target.

[motosapiens]

On 10/19/2019 at 7:58 AM, broadside72 said:

I'd prefer a rule edit to make the DQ applicable at the start of issuance of the ICHDH command rather than "after issuance" wording used now.

 

wut? so if I see a target i forgot, and shoot at just as the RO is starting to say 'if....' , I should be dq'd?

 

umm, no.

 

In reality, this is not a difficult rule to enforce. In my experience it is pretty easy to tell when someone has an AD while unloading vs decides to continue shooting. The rules as they are work just fine.

Edited October 21, 2019 by motosapiens

[Joe4d]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

the reason that rule exists is that there are jackass RO's who would just love to DQ someone for missing a target.

I know a ND when I see it , I bet pretty much anyone else does too.  Personaly think its stupid that isnt a DQ under 10.5,, blah blah blah safety safety,, but fiddling with ur gun,, BOOM lighting off a round when you didnt mean to suddenly isnt unsafe.. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Joe4d

[motosapiens]

23 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I know a ND when I see it , I bet pretty much anyone else does too.  Personaly think its stupid that isnt a DQ under 10.5,, blah blah blah safety safety,, but fiddling with ur gun,, BOOM lighting off a round when you didnt mean to suddenly isnt unsafe.. 

Those situations are almost always a dq. If you are unloading, reloading, clearing a malfunction, etc...., an unexpected shot is a dq. period.

 

OTOH, an early shot, where you are aiming at a target in a safe direction, but you fire the gun slightly before the sights are on target.... no big deal.