PCC and Timers

[WaJim]

I've been an RO for 6 months so bear with me. I just finished RO approximately 150 shooters the past two days as static RO in a level 2 match. I get the draw to PCC in USPSA and have no problem with the division. But I have a question though. 

 

Is there any way we, as a collective, can make all PCC regardless of make/model/mfgr loud enough to set the timer off without the RO being in the shooters right pocket? I find myself with a long barrel PCC getting the timer forward of the shooters shoulder so itll pick up.

 

Now I know theres a sensitivity setting on the timer....and the pitfalls of raising or lowering that setting.

 

I also know that as an RO (Newish) when I'm running a PCC im more focused on whether the timer is picking up shots and has/will pick up the last shot than what is Supposed to be the RO job. Which is watching shooter gun handling, hard cover strikes, foot faults and whether or not the shooter has engaged every target. 

 

The PCC shooter would , I'm sure like an accurate measurement of his/her time. Nobody wants an upset shooter or reshoot if it can be avoided.

 

The only way I can see to make this happen is an equipment change/requirement. There has to be a muzzle device for PCC that will competently run a timer set on Production Pistol setting.

 

?????????

 

Like I've said..I have no axe to grind with PCC. My concern is with RO Focus. Which, in my opinion, should be with the shooters gun handling and COF and not so focused on getting the Time.

 

OR

 

Maybe its just me.

 

 

 

[amokscience]

I just try to pickup the last shot regardless of division. Simplifies everything. Depending on the stage I might tell pcc shooters I'm going to be right up on them at the end of the stage. 

[Sarge]

34 minutes ago, WaJim said:

 I find myself with a long barrel PCC getting the timer forward of the shooters shoulder so itll pick up.

THIS IS OFTEN WHAT IT TAKES.

 

I also know that as an RO (Newish) when I'm running a PCC im more focused on whether the timer is picking up shots and has/will pick up the last shot than what is Supposed to be the RO job. Which is watching shooter gun handling, hard cover strikes, foot faults and whether or not the shooter has engaged every target. 

 ACTUALLY THE GUY ON THE TIMER HAS PRIMARY FOCUS ON THE GUN. UNTIL YOU GAIN EXPERIENCE THE OTHER STUFF YOU MENTION IS WAY SECONDARY.

 

 

My concern is with RO Focus. Which, in my opinion, should be with the shooters gun handling and COF and not so focused on getting the Time.

YOUR OPINION IS INCORRECT. YOU ARE HOLDING THE TIMER SO WHO ELSE WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING THE CORRECT TIME?

 

 

 

 

Generally once the COF is near completion the shooter is most likely just shooting at targets. Unless there is a malfunction or an unexpected reload there is no need to stare at the gun. I switch attention to the timer for the last few shots while keeping the gun in my peripheral vision. Once I capture the last shot clicking over I make a mental note of the time. Then I clear out the shooter and read the time. I can immediately recognize if it has changed.

  I ran a stage a few weeks ago where it was nearly impossible to stay near the shooter until the final shooting position. Almost every PCC had 0.00 on the timer until I stuck timer up under his gun. 

  You must learn to focus on timer for a split second at the end of COF.

[zzt]

First, you are trying to do too many things as timing RO.  It is the scoring ROs job to look for foot faults, etc. in an L2 match.

 

Second, it depends on the timer being used.  The CE Pocket Pro and Pro II are my favs because you can hold the timer down and forward and still see the time.  They do not appear to have any problems picking up even RFPI standard velocity without a comp.

 

The AMG Commander is an outstanding timer.  It is harder to see the display and keep the receiver down range, but its sensitivity is such that you don't have to worry about it.

 

CE 7000 timers are the ones I most frequently run across.  I don't like them as much.  If you adjust the sensitivity to where you can pick up uncomp'd rimfire rifles or PCCs, you risk getting false positives from echoes.  I run a comp on my rimpire Open pistol so the shot timer has an easier time picking up the shots.  Even so, I've gotten used to ROs holding the timer over my shoulder and in my sight for the start.  I've learned to ignore it.

[Nathanb]

I’m actually going to be demoing the amg timer when mine shows up to see if it eliminates this type of issue among others. 

[pskys2]

Kind of a pain, I try to keep the timer up in my peripheral vision so I can just notice the movement.  Then take a more focused look at the end.  As you get more time in "on the clock" it gets easier.  Until a "holy cr@p" moment!  

[broadside72]

I am not a fan of RO'ing PCC especially the really quiet ones on hoser stages. It can be very hard to keep up, keep out of the way and not get swept while sticking the timer closer to the muzzle.  Last shot is all that matters so what is what is focus on trying to get the time to pick up. Rest is safety stuff and I hope the ARO is watching other things.

 

[ATLDave]

Many fine observations already.  

 

It's frequently the case that the pad-runner/scorekeeper person needs to be watching stuff actively during the run, rather than just waiting for the time to be shown and called.  That's doubly the case with PCC shooters with quiet guns, since, towards the end of the stage, the RO is going to have to make extra efforts to ensure his/her own location and pay extra attention to the timer readout to see that it picks up the last shot.  That means it will be on the other RO - the pad-runner - to watch foot faults (which they should be doing anyway) and hard cover hits (which they should be doing anyway) and target engagement (which they should be doing anyway).  The art of being a good 2nd RO is terribly under-taught and under-discussed, but the rise of PCC is making it more important, not less.

 

An RO generally doesn't have to match the level of footspeed/atheleticism of the shooter, but, with some PCC stages, there are times when the RO needs to be almost as fast to be in the correct position at the end.  Sometimes, a slower-moving RO just has to hand the timer off to a faster squadmate to be able to, for instance, sprint downrange with the shooter to a final noise-muffling port with only a single target.   There's often no good way to "cheat" something like that.. you just have to be able to "cover" the shooter.  

[WaJim]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Kind of a pain, I try to keep the timer up in my peripheral vision so I can just notice the movement.  Then take a more focused look at the end.  As you get more time in "on the clock" it gets easier.  Until a "holy cr@p" moment!  

 

And this is exactly what happened.

 

I had to get last shot then the competitor had that 'holy cr@p' moment and here I was in a full over the shoulder hug. 

 

If he was a pistol shooter I'd have been two steps back holding the timer full extension. ...waiting for the Ah Ha, Oh No moment.

 

It all worked out but as RO running a PCC competitor on some, not all, stages where you have to be at the end of the COF can sometimes be a double edge sword.

[B_RAD]

12 hours ago, amokscience said:

I just try to pickup the last shot regardless of division. Simplifies everything. Depending on the stage I might tell pcc shooters I'm going to be right up on them at the end of the stage. 

Which, IMO, is not something you should Do. Unless the shooter ask a question the RO should only be saying commands per the rule book. Meak ready. Are you ready? Stand by.  The shooter is going thru their process and doesn't need to be processing anything else. 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by B_RAD

[rowdyb]

just add a db meter at chrono. other divisions already have extra steps like boxes and mag gauges. if you're not over 140db at 6' perpendicular to the end of the barrel/device you shoot for no score.

 

i say this jokingly btw

Edited July 15, 2019 by rowdyb

[amokscience]

1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

Which, IMO, is not something you should Do. Unless the shooter ask a question the RO should only be saying commands per the rule book. Meak ready. Are you ready? Stand by.  The shooter is going thru their process and doesn't need to be processing anything else. 

 

 

That's fair. This is stated outside of make ready, most likely at the briefing on a problematic stage. I've never had anyone push back since no one wants to reshoot over and over. I've seen dozens of pcc shooters have to reshoot because the RO was too lackadaisical handling the timer, which does even more to mess with their performance. 

[B_RAD]

1 hour ago, amokscience said:

That's fair. This is stated outside of make ready, most likely at the briefing on a problematic stage. I've never had anyone push back since no one wants to reshoot over and over. I've seen dozens of pcc shooters have to reshoot because the RO was too lackadaisical handling the timer, which does even more to mess with their performance. 

Very good point!

 

 

[jhgtyre]

On 7/15/2019 at 11:12 AM, rowdyb said:

just add a db meter at chrono. other divisions already have extra steps like boxes and mag gauges. if you're not over 140db at 6' perpendicular to the end of the barrel/device you shoot for no score.

 

i say this jokingly btw

I've said this both jokingly and, maybe not so jokingly, on more than one occasion.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 10:35 PM, Sarge said:

You must learn to focus on timer for a split second at the end of COF.

I see way too many RO's, experienced and inexperienced, who could use a reminder of this and not just when running PCC.

[WaJim]

6 hours ago, B_RAD said:

Which, IMO, is not something you should Do. Unless the shooter ask a question the RO should only be saying commands per the rule book. Meak ready. Are you ready? Stand by.  The shooter is going thru their process and doesn't need to be processing anything else. 

 

 

 

IIRC from my RO class  the practice of asking where a shooter is headed is not proper...Level II.

[zzt]

13 hours ago, WaJim said:

 

IIRC from my RO class  the practice of asking where a shooter is headed is not proper...Level II.

 

Sometimes it is.  If the stage is designed in such a way the starting RO could be in the way depending on which way the shooter turns, ask.  I hate RO traps.  I can think of a couple of bays this happens in.  Nine times out of ten the shooter knows this and will tell me which way they are going to go.  If not, ask.  You can do it while the shooter is standing by while taping and scoring are going on.  If not, definitely before Make Ready.   It is preferable to a reshoot and a potentially unsafe collision.

 

I'll also note I have never seen an RO trap in an L2 or L3 shoot.  L1, unfortunately it sometimes happens.

Edited July 16, 2019 by zzt

[ATLDave]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

 

Sometimes it is.  If the stage is designed in such a way the starting RO could be in the way depending on which way the shooter turns, ask.  I hate RO traps.  I can think of a couple of bays this happens in.  Nine times out of ten the shooter knows this and will tell me which way they are going to go.  If not, ask.  You can do it while the shooter is standing by while taping and scoring are going on.  If not, definitely before Make Ready.   It is preferable to a reshoot and a potentially unsafe collision.

Yeah, I agree with this.  I know there's a lot of dogma asserting that an RO should never say anything  except range commands to a shooter, even before the "make ready" (usually explained as being a way to keep a non-english speaker from whipping out the gun when the RO first opens his/her mouth, even with people obviously downrange).  Not only is this "best practice" violated in pretty much any match, it would get in the way of some much-needed communication on the kinds of stages where RO interference is likely if the shooter chooses a particular path without warning.

 

Any such exchange should, of course, occur prior to the "make ready" command.  After that, yes, stick solely to the specific range commands. 

[bishop414]

6 hours ago, ATLDave said:

Yeah, I agree with this.  I know there's a lot of dogma asserting that an RO should never say anything  except range commands to a shooter, even before the "make ready" (usually explained as being a way to keep a non-english speaker from whipping out the gun when the RO first opens his/her mouth, even with people obviously downrange).  Not only is this "best practice" violated in pretty much any match, it would get in the way of some much-needed communication on the kinds of stages where RO interference is likely if the shooter chooses a particular path without warning.

 

Any such exchange should, of course, occur prior to the "make ready" command.  After that, yes, stick solely to the specific range commands. 

 

I disagree with this.  None of the RO's business on what the shooter is going to do, which way they go etc.  We are there for safety, equality and scoring.  BTW, if you can't keep up or choose not to, then you should not hold the timer.  My opinion, it could be deemed as coaching or unfair advantage asking what they are doing.  Example, they say going right, oh really!? you say.  They look at you and say, maybe I'll go left now.  Also, guaranteed you did not ask every shooter in the match the same question, so it has potential to be different.  There is a reason they say stick to the range commands when on the clock.

 

As for PCC's I agree there is an issue.  Some just do not register well on timers.  Leads to another issue:  Shooter goes half way through stage, timer is 0.00 and has a malfunction he cannot clear.  Should be scored as shot, thanks for playing but because the timer never had a chance, he gets a re-shoot.  Not exactly fair for the other PCC shooters.

[zzt]

Well b, if I'm running you in an RO trap I'm going to ask.  Don't care if it pisses you off.

[Diver123]

As a PCC shooter and RO I am against asking them what way they are going, even prior to make ready. What happens if they go the opposite way they said? Now you as the RO might be caught flat footed cos you were expecting something else. Pay attention that they didn't miss a target and decide at the end to run back to that target while you are standing there with the timer over their shoulder. As RO's we should look at a stage and look for any traps that might be present and know what we are going to do if shooter does x, y, or z. Maybe you need a second RO to watch the shooter while you set up towards the last shooting position. Yes you will miss some shots but better than being caught down range and a reshoot issued. I hold the timer up high speaker pointed towards the shooter. I can see early on if the timer is picking up shots from where I am holding the timer. Lets me know where I need to stand and stay out of the way. Nothing worse than an RO shoving a timer up in your face while you are shooting an array.

[Diver123]

 

3 minutes ago, zzt said:

Well b, if I'm running you in an RO trap I'm going to ask.  Don't care if it pisses you off.

ZZT and what are you gonna do when I don't answer you?

[ampleworks]

I had this happen to me this past weekend on a stand in the box classifier and ended up with a reshoot.

Although we cannot place the burden on the shooter to advise the RO that they have a "forward throwing" comp, if I'm with a new RO that doesn't know me, I give them the courtesy.

No rule is going to work to fix this issue unless every single club used the exact same timer and timer settings. A shooter shouldn't have to tune their gun to shoot at a particular club.

[zzt]

13 hours ago, Diver123 said:

 

ZZT and what are you gonna do when I don't answer you?

 

Then I'm going to stand where I should be normally at the start.  If you run into me it's a reshoot.  If you do it again, your an a hole, because you already knew exactly what was going to happen..  I'll assume you are doing it deliberately, DQ you for unsportsmanlike conduct and call the MD.  You can argue it out with him.  Maybe the MD will pull the stage, because the RO trap should never have been allowed in the first place.  Fortunately, I've never run into a shooter like you.  Hopefully, I never will.  Remember, don't be a dick applies to shooters as well as ROs.

Edited July 17, 2019 by zzt

[zzt]

13 hours ago, Diver123 said:

As a PCC shooter and RO I am against asking them what way they are going, even prior to make ready

 

I'm specifically talking about RO traps at the start position.  If the design is such that I cannot get far enough out of your way to avoid interfering with you, I'll ask.  If you answer, I'll take up start position on the opposite side.  I don't get the reluctance.  If you are a righty, I'm going to be standing on your right side.  If you intend to break that way, you can clearly see I'm an obstacle, so why not ask me to start you from the other side?  As I wrote in a previous post, nine times out of ten the shooter recognizes the situation and tells me without my asking.

 

As far as down range is concerned, it's easy to avoid traps.  The only downside is you may miss a shot or two on the timer from a quite gun.  That's not the ROs fault.  It's the MD's fault for allowing that particular stage design.  As an RO, part of my job is not interfering with your stage plan, and avoiding reshoots.  If there is enough room at the start position where I can assume the normal RO position, I won't be asking you anything.  I'm not an obstacle, so I don't care which way you break.

Edited July 17, 2019 by zzt

[ATLDave]

15 hours ago, bishop414 said:

 

I disagree with this.  None of the RO's business on what the shooter is going to do, which way they go etc.  We are there for safety, equality and scoring. 

 

The last sentence is in conflict with the rest.  The point of asking (on certain stages and prior to make ready) is to help avoid a safety issue and to help avoid reshoots (which are not good for equity or scoring).  Most stages there is no reason to ask, on a few that information is valuable.  

15 hours ago, bishop414 said:

There is a reason they say stick to the range commands when on the clock.

And not one person has said anything contrary to this.  We're talking about before the shooter is "on the clock," and before any of the range commands are given.