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PCC and Timers


WaJim

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17 hours ago, bishop414 said:

  BTW, if you can't keep up or choose not to, then you should not hold the timer. 

 

As for PCC's I agree there is an issue.  Some just do not register well on timers.  Leads to another issue:  Shooter goes half way through stage, timer is 0.00 and has a malfunction he cannot clear.  Should be scored as shot, thanks for playing but because the timer never had a chance, he gets a re-shoot.  Not exactly fair for the other PCC shooters.

 

 

This is exactly what I meant when I said in my OP that it is a double edge sword.

 

Does the position of the RO @ the end of the COF clue in the shooter that he may have bypassed a target when the shooters  PCC needs the Over The Shoulder last shot in order for it to register?

 

So lets say the stage is a funnel shape walls with ports on either sides, open array at the end of the funnel.....The RO sees that the PCC forgets to shoot one target through a port. The RO seeing this and holds back wondering whether this port is one the shooter has forgot or that the shooter has figured this last port is where he is going to finish his COF. Either way the last shot will not be recorded unless the timer is in position.

 

So lets say,,,,,,the shooter forgot the target, sees that the RO had hung back, the light bulb comes on, the shooter races to the port and engages the target....does this give the shooter an advantage?

 

Should the RO be on the PCC's heels timer over the shoulder possibly causing a reshoot due to RO Interference if the perceived missed port was part of the shooters plan.

 

It could all be fixed with an equipment change......or minimum decibel test. 

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WaJim, I've seen it happen both ways, and not just with a PCC.   

 

One club I routinely shoot at is noted for their mostly difficult, technical stages.  They minimize the problem by having ALL PCC shooters on squad five and they use excellent timers.

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3 minutes ago, zzt said:

WaJim, I've seen it happen both ways, and not just with a PCC.   

 

One club I routinely shoot at is noted for their mostly difficult, technical stages.  They minimize the problem by having ALL PCC shooters on squad five and they use excellent timers.

 

Great idea....but most matches the Divisions usually cluster in squads. I know Ill tend to shoot with Limited if I'm shooting Limited. Watching a PCC or Open shoot wont help my stage execution.....LOL.

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4 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Then I'm going to stand where I should be normally at the start.  If you run into me it's a reshoot.  If you do it again, your an a hole, because you already knew exactly what was going to happen..  I'll assume you are doing it deliberately, DQ you for unsportsmanlike conduct and call the MD.  You can argue it out with him.  Maybe the MD will pull the stage, because the RO trap should never have been allowed in the first place.  Fortunately, I've never run into a shooter like you.  Hopefully, I never will.  Remember, don't be a dick applies to shooters as well as ROs.

 

If I manage to run into you at the start then you are the retard for just standing there. You are the one with the timer standing behind me and know when you are going to beep it. So you should well know to get out of the way as you beep me. If I do it again on the start then its you  the RO that's the a hole for not getting out of the way. Its on the RO to stay out of the shooter way not the shooter to stay out of yours. You cant hold a shooter to their word. There is no penalty. It should be obvious what way a shooter is going if its an RO trap. That in itself implies there is only one way its a trap. There is a simple solution for you. Don't run the timer. Issue solved.

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17 hours ago, Diver123 said:

 

ZZT and what are you gonna do when I don't answer you?

maybe you'll have a great run, but the time won't be properly recorded, and you'll have to reshoot and your gun will jam, and you'll lose the match because of it.

 

why not just try to make sure things go right the first time? Troy's "don't be a dick" rule applies to shooters too.

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7 minutes ago, Diver123 said:

Has nothing to do with don't be a dick. Has to do with changing my mind before the beep. Every shooter is entitled to do so at will without announcing it. 

 

You certainly may change your mind, nonetheless, the RO is only trying to help you get your time fairly recorded on the first run without interfering or otherwise causing you to have to subject yourself to the whims of the reshoot gods. Why not be part of the solution?

 

I tend to be proactive if I think there might be an issue, and warn the RO if I am going to be heading his direction in a hurry after the beep (like on some retreat stages).  When running the timer on a movement-intensive stage, I may ask if the shooter's pcc has been having any trouble having the shots picked up, just so i can get an idea of how close I need to be prepared to be. I have yet to have a shooter take exception to this, but if someone does, and they have to reshoot after a great run.... bummer, man.

Edited by motosapiens
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1 hour ago, WaJim said:

So lets say,,,,,,the shooter forgot the target, sees that the RO had hung back, the light bulb comes on, the shooter races to the port and engages the target....does this give the shooter an advantage?

 

I think it's fair to expect that the shooter isn't going to post a great HF either way at that point.  I'm not sure I'd call it an "advantage."  

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5 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

 

I think it's fair to expect that the shooter isn't going to post a great HF either way at that point.  I'm not sure I'd call it an "advantage."  

 

It would be a better HF than if he'd forgotten the target entirely,.... correct?

 

Position of the RO could/would have clued him in that something was awry.

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1 hour ago, Diver123 said:

 

If I manage to run into you at the start then you are the retard for just standing there. You are the one with the timer standing behind me and know when you are going to beep it. So you should well know to get out of the way as you beep me. If I do it again on the start then its you  the RO that's the a hole for not getting out of the way. Its on the RO to stay out of the shooter way not the shooter to stay out of yours. You cant hold a shooter to their word. There is no penalty. It should be obvious what way a shooter is going if its an RO trap. That in itself implies there is only one way its a trap. There is a simple solution for you. Don't run the timer. Issue solved.

 

Obviously you just don't get it.  You haven't read (or understood) what I wrote, and you are making assumptions.  RO traps often go both ways. 

 

I'll simplify it for you.  If the stage design makes it impossible to get out of your way at the start if you run towards me, I have to know which way you are going to move.  If you tell me right and then change your mind, ask me to move to the other side.  If there is room, the first thing you will hear from me is Make Ready.  

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1 hour ago, WaJim said:

 

It would be a better HF than if he'd forgotten the target entirely,.... correct?

Depends on how far back he's got to run and how long it took him to realize that you weren't where he expected you to be.  And how many other targets and points there are on the stage.  Minus 30 points is bad.  So is adding 12 extra seconds to a 20 second run on a 28-round field course.  

 

This doesn't strike me as a big competitive equity issue, anymore than when an RO hits the "if" in "if you are finished" a little harder when they notice a popper didn't fall in the last array and the shooter seems clueless.  

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If you choose to shoot PCC, you choose to have the RO in your hip pocket.

If you choose to shoot PCC at a range without remote timers, you choose to risk no score stages due to timer issues.

I happen to RO them like I do everyone else at the start. During the run I try to keep the timer facing up and away from me towards the gun and if possible lower than the shooters strong arm and about as forward as his elbow. It's a little awkward running around stretched out partially sideways the entire run but you adapt.

As he approaches the last array I stick the timer closer if possible. Then I hold it there until I see him relax. Then start giving commands.

Have yet to get run into or have someone complain about my proximity to them.

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20 hours ago, ATLDave said:

 

 

This doesn't strike me as a big competitive equity issue, anymore than when an RO hits the "if" in "if you are finished" a little harder when they notice a popper didn't fall in the last array and the shooter seems clueless.  

 

Yes and the Louder than normal  IF  you are finished at level II can get you the RO a procedural for coaching.....

 

8.6.2 , 8.6.2.1

Edited by WaJim
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